Why Do Sailors Still Die Being Dragged Along By Their Tethers?

[Steadman Uhlich]

Commercial products exist today, that fulfill that concept mentioned by BOATMAN61. ( triangular sail used to lift person).. Essentially a net or piece of fabric used to pull the horizontal body to deck level. As I recall, Plastimo and a U.K. based company make them a MOB gear.

Here are a few illustrations to help the discussion.

I think the yellow model below is interesting for also having built in rungs for climbing like a ladder if possible.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by daletournier

I owned a gym for years, was once very fit. I find it very hard to believe that many men could pull themselves up out of the sea even while boat is stationary, most modern large boats have huge topsides. Kicking hard I can't even reach my toe rails in a calm anchorage.

Also it's more than just a pull up we are talking about, its a muscle up, you have to get your body up and over, very difficult. Obviously easier on smaller boats, but still very difficult for most.

All true, my point was that the fitness helps. Practice helps. Doesn't make it easy or 100% but staying in shape adds options you otherwise don't have. I scuba dive, and 3' seas are considered the limit by most operators. I've climbed back on a dive boat in 3' seas and it is difficult even with a fantastic ladder, the ladder and the boat don't match the rhythm of the seas and you have to be really careful or you'll get hurt. I can't imagine what it would be like in worse conditions, but you'd have to be strong regardless of how many steps the ladder had below the waterline.

The big take away from all this for me Is I can not go in the water EVER or I will die. My partner does not leave the cockpit. I have six padeyes in the cockpit.

My resources will be focused on staying attached to the boat.

I'm in complete agreement with all that.

[Eder]

I replaced all my lifelines with SS tubing...terrific additional handholds going forward and strong enough for any oversized sailor.

[boom23]

Originally Posted by Eder

I replaced all my lifelines with SS tubing...terrific additional handholds going forward and strong enough for any oversized sailor.

Amel's use SS tube for the top lifeline. Railing is also a little taller I believe. Great safety addition.

[thinwater]

If higher, ss tubing lifelines were a factory option (on larger boats--probably don't fit <35-40 feet), I wonder how many they would sell? Higher cable lifelines, perhaps with 3 wires and/or netting are part of the same question.

Just a question. I'm not pushing an opinion, primarily because as young man I would have said "no," and as an older sailor I can understand "yes."

[Snore]

Originally Posted by thinwater

(edited for briefness)

1. The sailors that began this thread (Clipper) fell from the very bow, where there is no practical difference. One was virtually straddling the anchor point, from my understanding. There are places where no jackline is safe.
   
   One must think outside the box. First I always use a two legged tether. At the bow, I can clip to the jackline with the 3’ leg and take a turn or two around the forestay with the 6’ leg and be secure. I have done this while riding the bow through a wave. Works well.
   
   .
   
2. They did not fall while traveling but rather while working. For this reason, many feel that workstation clips are even better. They are were needed and they are not subject to stretch.
   
   I disagree. Boats often need no modifications. At the mast? Take the 6’ tether and take a turn around the mast. On the foredeck? Clip onto the jackline and a cleat, or even the bow pulpit. While the pulpit alone cannot support you, combined with the jackline it may—- beats the hell over falling off.
   
   .
   
3. There are very few falls to windward. >90% of sailors fall to leeward, unless you have statistics to the contrary. Thus, a central line places the anchor point closer to the rail, not farther.
   
   The geometry on that escapes me. Windward, leeward makes no difference. Even on a 10’ beam Boat, if you are clipped in with a 6’ tether to a tensioned jackline, you cannot fall off aft of the beam. Forward of the beam requires some thinking.

I will not enter into a debate on relative safety of jackline position. But, this is the only way my boats leave the dock. Nor will I ask why a non-pro went forward in those conditions. There are not enough facts to have an intelligent discussion about that decision.

The above is based on my personal experience, a background in construction and construction safety. Including running a 75 person construction operation 4 1/2 years without a lost time accident. The one that broke the streak was a one day loss.

When I look at a safety issue, it is from a different perspective than most. To each thier own... ...

[TrentePieds]

Quote ex Dale: “The big take away from all this for me Is I can not go in the water EVER or I will die. My partner does not leave the*cockpit. I have six padeyes in the*cockpit. “

The only sensible position to take! Quoting my landlubber Granny: “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure”

Quote ex Boatman61: “Trientepieds.. a variation of your*mainsail*idea was mentioned at least once a year in the annual rotation of regurgitated re-written articles in Practical Boat Owner back in the 70's”..

Boatie- Shouldn't you and I just graciously accept that if it's old, it's gotta be good ;-)? Tried the technique once – for “proof of concept”. Off a Catalina 27 of all things. And it worked, though admittedly the wind was only moderate.

Quote ex Dave22: “4 feet seems a bit much but 3 or 3.5 feet really is necessary. The key is to get in the water and try it. If you cannot get on the bottom rung while in the water, it is just too short. Installing a hand hold a foot ot two above the water line can also help a lot in.”

Very valid comment! The key, I think, is that a cold person with his/her knees drawn up to the chest cannot exert nearly as much force with his/her legs as can the same person with the legs only half drawn up. Therefore the bottom rung should be at a depth that recognizes that. Better too deep than too shallow since there'll be more rungs above. There should be a rung no more than a foot above the water so a person can reach it while floating otherwise unsupported. It's the combination of a good handhold and the full force of legs being extended from the position where the mechnical advantage of the skeleton is greatest that will get the person up out of the water in readiness for climbing the ladder from there.on So we can argue about precice dimensions. My purpose was only to establish the principle :-)

Steady: Yes, of course. But as you may have noticed, my comments are always aimed at the SMALL boat cruisers among us - because I am one :-) Every bit of gear that can be made – within reason – to serve two or more purposes should be made to do so. More gear means more clutter and Lord knows we have enuff of that already :-)! There are also people here who sail on minimal budgets. For them, too, multiple uses of any bit of gear is an advantage. Going to the chandler's together with MyBeloved is a hoot. “Ooh, wouldn't that be a great addition” sez she. “We don't need it” sez I. The difference in perspective comes from the fact that she is not mechanically inclined and of very little sailing experience, so she cannot be expected to visualize how a given bit of gear can be made to serve multiple purposes and she cannot be expected to judge soundly what will be superfluous. It'll come. In time :-)!

As a general comment: I think that while true as far as they go, the comments regarding fitness rather miss the mark. As skipper I would find it a greater challenge to get yer garden variety “passenger” back a board than to do the same with a gung-ho mountain climber at the height of his manhood. The gear has to reflect that reality. And me – I'm over the hill, and I know it, so if I go over the side, MB had better get on the mainsail halyard pretty smartish :-)!
.
Happy 2018 to all :-)

TP

[MarkusK]

Thank you El Pinguino #79 and TrentePieds #85. That's the education I needed. Already looking forward to experimenting with slipped knots and lanyards on my boarding ladder.

The rope ladder sounds good...might fab up some extra steps to emulate this.

Happy New Year to all!

[ferrailleur]

Happy New Boating and Cruising Year to All!


I'm just an humble wannabe cruiser but I read every post on this discussion and I learned a lot.


Thanks

My only sailing accomplishment: winning a dinghy regatta in France.... in 1964!

[CarlF]

This thread started because of an accident on a racing boat staffed by professionals. These guys are young, in-shape, trained, and in an athletic competition where they have chosen a higher risk profile than recreational sailing. I have nothing but respect for their courage and skill. But that's not my kind of sailing.

I think Boatman's strategy is a good one too. The risk that gets you is the one you're not thinking about. I suspect that's not his problem.

I've arranged my boat such that there's hardly ever a reason to leave the cockpit in difficult weather. I would, and have, changed course or luffed along for a whole day to allow the wind and sea to subside before going forward. I'm in no hurry.

The lifeline stanchions are 30" mounted on top of a 4" bulwark. Dyneema cord is stretched vertically at regular intervals.

If I were to go forward, all hands are first in the cockpit wearing harnesses. The boat is de-powered.

I have no jacklines. I think they present more hazards and risks to a cruiser than they fix. There are lots of places to clip on my route forward.

My harness has three tethers. I use them all - to widely spaced attachment points.

[billknny]

And for a completely different perspective...

If you are crew on my boat you WILL travel to the front of the boat on the windward side attached to the jackline on that side with the 3 foot leg on your double leg tether. If you think that is unsafe, find another boat.

This is not a blind allegiance to convention, but has been carefully considered and I know it is the best approach on MY boat. Here is why:

• You will have the side of the deckhouse under your feet, no matter how much the boat is heeling. It is always best to NOT fall in the first place.
• You will have the liferail to windward (not a line or wire--a stainless rail) to hold onto. Our boat as a continuous rail all around the boat.
• If you fall, you will have lots of things to grab as you slide to leeward across the deck, and you CAN NOT land up in the water. If you are in the water, your tethering system has FAILED.
• If you can figure out some way to fall UP over the windward rail, your short tether will hold your head at the gunwale height (yes, I have tried it)
• Since the jacklines are inside the shrouds, if you are over the rail you can not slide all the way to the back of the boat. The main shrouds will stop you if you are forward, and the mizzen shroud will stop you at the cockpit, the arch leg will stop you before you are hanging off the transom.
• You will stay on the windward side of the boom (ALWAYS). Being on the leeward side of the boom is like being on the wrong side of the double yellow line on the freeway. Eventually, something VERY bad will happen.
• Since you will be clipped in on your chest side, if you ever end up over the rail you will be facing the boat, so you can hold on to the liferail, or (maybe) lift yourself high enough to get a foot on the gunwale.

When you come to where ever you will be working you WILL clip into a hard point and not just the jackline. The 6 foot leg of your tether is almost never used at full length, but is used to wrap around something and then clipped back to your harness to keep you close.

Your tethering system MUST keep you on the boat as it's first and ONLY job. The idea that a tether attached to your back will keep you alive when you are being towed by the boat means your tether is no good in the first place.

[TrentePieds]

Billknny:

I would like you to know that I asked MyBeloved to read your post #116. She did, and came to me afterwards in a very pensive mood and wanted to talk about an incident on one of our first trips together. She'd messed up the line-handling as we cast off, and I turned somewhat — uhm — authoritarian. I did my single-handing schtick, and there was no harm done other than to her pride :-)

Now, MB is a true Canadian, polite to the point of saying “sorry” if someone steps on HER foot, so having orders barked at her merely makes her go catatonic. The lines-kerfuffle therefore had to be laid at my door: 1) I had asked a crew member to do what I should have known that she was not yet capable of doing. 2) I had used the techniques of teaching and commanding that I'd use with sea cadets on a woman who'd spent her entire working life dealing with other people's infants and toddlers. Lack of sensitivity and judgment on my part! Well, obviously I clued in, and switched to more efficacious teaching techniques, and she's doing just fine now. :-)

So as I said, she came just now in a pensive mood after reading your post and wanted to talk about authoritarianism. Make of THAT what you will :-0)! So we had the old talk about being able to run a ship by committee (and using the opportunity to teach) when the operating environment is benign, but needing an increasing authoritarian “management style” as the operating environment becomes increasingly threatening. She's gone away to digest that.

If you are not careful, you'll make a major contribution to giving her “command presence”, and I thank you :-)

TP

[StuM]

Originally Posted by billknny

Your tethering system MUST keep you on the boat as it's first and ONLY job.

My sentiments exactly!

[billknny]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Billknny: So we had the old talk about being able to run a ship by committee (and using the opportunity to teach) when the operating environment is benign, but needing an increasing authoritarian “management style” as the operating environment becomes increasingly threatening. She's gone away to digest that.

If you are not careful, you'll make a major contribution to giving her “command presence”, and I thank you :-)

TP

TP,

Some things on our boat 100% always run "by committee". Where are we going? What we do when we get there? What's for dinner? But when the safety of the ship or crew are in question, sometimes (almost) any decision is better than a "discussion". I am lucky (and honored) that "MB" trusts me with those decisions.

I am always 100% willing to discuss the why and wherefores of a command decision--when there is time, and the immediate safety issues are past. I have even been known to change my mind.

It is kind of a crude and kind of heartless way to put it, but when you are on my boat I am responsible for your safety. If you are not willing to accept my decisions, you will not feel safe on my boat, and you belong somewhere else. The same applies when I am on someone else's boat. I either accept their way of doing things, or I stay ashore.

Years ago I had an article published on the subject of how a skipper should deal with crew. It's actually one of my articles I am happiest with...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

BK
http://fetchinketch.net

[thinwater]

Read back through the thread. Then imagine if you were on the standards committee:

1. The jacklines must be

• centerline
• near the rail
• waist high
• removed

2. The lifelines must be

• stainless tubing
• removed
• a range of heights

3. The tether must be

• left at home
• 3' long
• 6' long
• energy absorbing
• low stretch

4. The hook must be

• a soft shackle
• a screw shackle
• a non-locking clip is OK
• a locking Gibb hook is OK
• a Gibb hook is not OK and we need something better

5. The jackline must be

• webbing and removed every night
• steel cable and fixed
• Dyneema

6. Not stated on the thread is the opinion of many racers that they simply couldn't not sail efficiently under many of the strictures presented. They need something lighter and faster. Given a higher skill level and the pressure to race, they are probably right, for themselves.


7. And many harness and training factors that were not well touches on.


Not only is there limited agreement in details, most statements are declarative, suggesting difficulty in finding compromise. Many of the philosophies don't integrate well with others. I predict some standards will be rewritten in the next few years (it will take that long), and I don't envy the job of pulling the sides together. They have to write a one-size-fits-all rule, with a small accident sample size, for conditions that are very hard to observe or experiment within. Tough job.