Why Do Sailors Still Die Being Dragged Along By Their Tethers?

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Snore

Very short answer—— Simple physics. If you run a jackline 1’ from the edge of the boat and use a 3’ or 6’ tether- if you fall there is a good chance you fall off the boat. If you rig the jackline down the centerline of the boat this cannot happen.

There are three problems with this reasoning. You may not agree with them, but they are reasons other feel are valid. BTW, I agree that are valid reasons for centerline jacklines.

1. The sailors that began this thread (Clipper) fell from the very bow, where there is no practical difference. One was virtually straddling the anchor point, from my understanding. There are places where no jackline is safe.
2. They did not fall while traveling but rather while working. For this reason, many feel that workstation clips are even better. They are were needed and they are not subject to stretch.
3. There are very few falls to windward. >90% of sailors fall to leeward, unless you have statistics to the contrary. Thus, a central line places the anchor point closer to the rail, not farther.

There is nothing wrong with a central line--it is a great addition--but I think it is neither 100% safe nor provably better. It is just another school of thought.


What is important is that they are fitted to the specific boat, with though given to where folks will actually fall, not just how close the rail is. On my boat, one of the most dangerous places is the cabin top, over 8 feet from the rail. So it depends.

[thinwater]

My favorite way to use a tether is NOT to catch me as I fly toward the ocean, but to lean against intentionally, for stability. No impact.

• When reefing, working at the mast, I can clip short to a vertical stay (installed for this purpose--not a shroud) and lean on the tether, perfectly stable.
• When preforming tests of drogues, mostly single handed in rough conditions with the lifeline gates open, I would tether to an aft hard point on the hard top and lean on the tether, gaining stability and avoiding get jerked off my feet. There is no "one hand for the ship" when you are recovering a drogue. Same when reeling in a big fish when it is rough. Just lean on the tether, before you fall.
• The tramp can be broad on a cat. Instead of bounding and slipping uncontrolled across the tramp, I hold the tether as a hand hold, bracing and controlling my speed, slowly letting it out. When I reach the end, near the lee side, I lean on it, perhaps clipping in short.

Workstation tethers are particularly good for this.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by stormalong

A 50/50 gamble.. Hogwash brother,

Back to the 50/50 comment. Although these incidents happen they are statistically rare. They need to be planned for and procedures put in place to deal with them the odds of it happening are probably 1 in 10,000 or 1 in 100,000.

PS. Very, very few boats go over 8 knots.

Pretty much the same statistics as fatal car crashes when one thinks theres at least 30 million vehicles on UK roads each day..
Keno.. Thats what the cup of hot water every so often is for.. warms away any wind chill factor and rinses sweat and groin warming pee on the way down..

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Boatman,

I tried your wetsuit idea the last time we hit wet, cold weather. The idea is sound, but it was difficult to get out of the thing when heading below to relieve myself. Something I hadn’t anticipated.

Try a two-piece wetsuit. e.g. https://www.freedivestore.com/38-spearfishing-wetsuit

It seems to me that physical fitness should be a part of this discussion. Good upper body strength opens up possibilities not otherwise present.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Try a two-piece wetsuit. e.g. https://www.freedivestore.com/38-spearfishing-wetsuit

It seems to me that physical fitness should be a part of this discussion. Good upper body strength opens up possibilities not otherwise present.

I owned a gym for years, was once very fit. I find it very hard to believe that many men could pull themselves up out of the sea even while boat is stationary, most modern large boats have huge topsides. Kicking hard I can't even reach my toe rails in a calm anchorage.

Also it's more than just a pull up we are talking about, its a muscle up, you have to get your body up and over, very difficult. Obviously easier on smaller boats, but still very difficult for most.

There's alot of good stuff written here but all theoretical. So many variables. I know from my passages this year that stopping the boat quickly enough, being able to turn around while still keeping an eye on the person in the water and then getting them back in would be close to impossible, there's usually only two of us.

The big take away from all this for me Is I can not go in the water EVER or I will die. My partner does not leave the cockpit. I have six padeyes in the cockpit.

My resources will be focused on staying attached to the boat.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Try a two-piece wetsuit. e.g. https://www.freedivestore.com/38-spearfishing-wetsuit

It seems to me that physical fitness should be a part of this discussion. Good upper body strength opens up possibilities not otherwise present.

You’re dreaming if you believe you can pull yourself up onto a boat without the aid of a ladder or swim fins, obviously.... you’ve never tried.

Even when I was still racing bicycles in the velodrome and more fit than anyone my age that I even knew of.... I couldn’t pull myself up onto the sugar scoop stern of my boat without the boarding ladder while wearing a wetsuit AND fins. It took another very strong fellow and me working together to drag my ash back up onto a neighbor’s boat after we failed in our attempt on our boat. A sturdy, easily deployed boarding ladder is essential even with a sugar scoop stern. I weighed only 140 pounds at the time and could pedal a fixed gear track bike 28.3mph continuously for one hour at age 55.

Don’t be fooling yourself.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by stormalong

If you are going to quote me do not change what I said. I am certainly not your brother.

As for the rest of your post. Are you on drugs?

Oooooooooo..!!!! Who's a sensitive wee soul then..
A wise man once told me "When insults start.. their arguments lost"..

Happy New Year

PS: as for the 'brother'.. that was accidental as I deleted unwanted parts of your post on my phone.. but.. you do sound like him.. LMAO!!!

[boatman61]

And.. since you appear to be a lover of statistics try this..
The population of the UK is 68million..
"The total area of the United Kingdom is approximately 243,610 square kilometres (94,060 sq mi). The country occupies the major part of the British Isles archipelago and includes the island of Great Britain, the north-eastern one-sixth of the island of Ireland and some smaller surrounding islands.

Now imagine if all those folks lived in spacious Michigan at 96,713.51sq miles.. instead of the mere 9,922,576 currently.. only 2million more than the population of London..
What would your roads be like there..

[TJ D]

Boatie, I'll be your brother...

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by TJ D

Boatie, I'll be your brother...

Funny enough he lives in Alaska.. he's a mountain man..

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Funny enough he lives in Alaska.. he's a mountain man..

Nope, I just work in Alaska (at sea)- Rocket Science is our only home!

[Dave22q]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

@Markus, #77:

Good job, Markus - you are picking up on the important stuff. I see you are in La belle Province, so you know from cold water too :-)

TP's store-bought boarding ladder is useless. Bottom rung, when deployed, is only two feet below the surface. I'm leaving it where it is on the transom because the regs require that one be fitted. But it was obviously fitted by the same PO who "improved" the boat by fitting a mast-furling main :-)

A boarding ladder needs to have it's bottom rung at least FOUR feet below the surface. Else a man in the water cannot get his feet on that bottom rung, even when he draws up his knees. Because of that, the boughten ladder is really only an ornament. For emergency boarding a "Jacob's ladder" ("rope ladder") with metal pipe rungs to weight it down works much better.

Bungee cord is strictly verboten in TP. Particularly those infernal things with a metal hook on the ends that some people use to make what they fondly believe is a "harbour furl". If you've ever had one of those slip from your frozen fingers and flip around the boom to hit you in the face, you'll know why they are verboten. And I'm monocular, so I'm not gonna take a chance on one of those things taking out my good eye :-)!

So back to the boughten ladder: The bottom rung is secured to the pushpit, when it is up, with a "slippery clovehitch", the running part left long enuff to reach to just a couple of inches above the water, but no more, when it is idle. It's whipped on the end, but no stopper knot is used because it needs to slip around the tubing of the pushpit without hanging up. Grab it and tug it and the hitch slips but the ladder won't fall. As separate lanyard, also hanging down to end just above the water and stopper-knotted to afford a better grip, permits the person in the water to pull the ladder free of its retainer clips and drop into deployment. For all the good it will do, since it's too short :-)!

As someone said - I think it was Dockhead - ALWAYS have your sheath-knife on you just in case some piece of cordage gives you grief.

TP

4 feet seems a bit much but 3 or 3.5 feet really is necessary. The key is to get in the water and try it. If you cannot get on the bottom rung while in the water, it is just too short. Installing a hand hold a foot ot two above the water line can also help a lot in.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by TJ D

Nope, I just work in Alaska (at sea)- Rocket Science is our only home!

Sorry.. crossed meanings..
I meant my brother lives in Alaska.. he prefers mountains to the sea.
Was working on your info which says Alaska/Portugal.. guess your on the Algarve if still here.
Enjoy the fireworks & festivities tonight..

[boatman61]

Going back on topic..
Trientepieds.. a variation of your mainsail idea was mentioned at least once a year in the annual rotation of regurgitated re-written articles in Practical Boat Owner back in the 70's..
They suggested a storm sail clipped to the foot of stanchions with the spinnaker halyard to the head of the sail then guide the MOB into the belly of the sail and hoist.
I suppose one could make and carry a canvas triangle of sufficient size with snap shackles/eyes purpose built for ones boat in the cockpit locker if one wished.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You’re dreaming if you believe you can pull yourself up onto a boat without the aid of a ladder or swim fins, obviously.... you’ve never tried.

I've done it. Admittedly, on boats with low freeboard, not sailing vessels. I don't think I could do it on a sailboat under good conditions; add some cold and the weight of outwear and so on and there's no way. But that isn't the point. The point is that it opens up possibilities that otherwise aren't there, and reduces the amount of strength those on board have to bring to bear and the level of sophistication of the rescue gear that is needed.

I can, for example, quite comfortably get back on board with a ladder with one step below the water. I don't think that's exceptional, it just requires a level of strength and flexibility that most people can achieve with regular trips to the gym.

Even when I was still racing bicycles in the velodrome and more fit than anyone my age that I even knew of.... I couldn’t pull myself up onto the sugar scoop stern of my boat without the boarding ladder while wearing a wetsuit AND fins.

Most of my friends who bicycle have very good cardiovascular fitness, strong legs, and well controlled body weight. They do not have much upper body strength. Can you do pull-ups?