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Old 20-02-2016, 17:21   #76
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

I don't see what the confusion is about. In the Centennial Edition of the Annapolis Book of Seamanship, it clearly states that in order for a boat to be called "blue water" capable or approved, it must be:
1) Built under Lloyds Inspection, not just "to compliance with standards"
2) Built after 24 sister ships, of identical construction, have been actually built and sailed, during 24 consecutive months, around the world, without benefit of any radio communications or other long-distance weathercasting communication systems, and having arrived in the same order in which they departed, at their originating port with all original crew alive and well, without receiving external aid beyond that which they were able to obtain after entering ports under their own power.


Seems like fairly objective and reasonable definition, to me. What, no one else read the Centennial Edition yet?
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Old 20-02-2016, 17:28   #77
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
I don't see what the confusion is about. In the Centennial Edition of the Annapolis Book of Seamanship, it clearly states that in order for a boat to be called "blue water" capable or approved, it must be:
1) Built under Lloyds Inspection, not just "to compliance with standards"
2) Built after 24 sister ships, of identical construction, have been actually built and sailed, during 24 consecutive months, around the world, without benefit of any radio communications or other long-distance weathercasting communication systems, and having arrived in the same order in which they departed, at their originating port with all original crew alive and well, without receiving external aid beyond that which they were able to obtain after entering ports under their own power.


Seems like fairly objective and reasonable definition, to me. What, no one else read the Centennial Edition yet?
None of America's china clippers were built to anyone's standards except the shipyard that made the boat. Lloyd's is meaningless nowadays. Use to mean someone from the insurance/investor company actually inspected the ongoing construction due to workers not building the ships to designed standards. A lot of shoddy work back in those days. A lot of shoddy work even today. Building to Lloyd's standards is a marketing term nowadays with about as much value as a three dollar bill.
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Old 20-02-2016, 17:32   #78
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Ive taken this topic from another thread which i didnt want to hijack.

It seems to me people have differences in understanding in what is Coastal Cruising, what is Ocean Cruising, and the what the safety needs of the vessel, contents, build is for each.

Comments
After reading the comments it seems that people use the discussed terminology pretty much the same way, except that there are some disagreements on the values of the parameters here and there (and some general disagreement of course, as usual ). No major disagreements left?
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Old 20-02-2016, 17:50   #79
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
I don't see what the confusion is about. In the Centennial Edition of the Annapolis Book of Seamanship, it clearly states that in order for a boat to be called "blue water" capable or approved, it must be:
1) Built under Lloyds Inspection, not just "to compliance with standards"
2) Built after 24 sister ships, of identical construction, have been actually built and sailed, during 24 consecutive months, around the world, without benefit of any radio communications or other long-distance weathercasting communication systems, and having arrived in the same order in which they departed, at their originating port with all original crew alive and well, without receiving external aid beyond that which they were able to obtain after entering ports under their own power.


Seems like fairly objective and reasonable definition, to me. What, no one else read the Centennial Edition yet?
Hum!!! and that was in what century?

The Lloyds certification that Bavaria and Hanse have does not only warrant a compliance with standards but assures "regular random surveys during series production at the yard and verifies the modifications resulting from requests for changes during construction. Inspections cover crucial components such as:

Sailyachts:
• Ballast-keel connections
• Hull-deck connection
• Mast support (including chain plates)

Sail- and motoryachts:
• Steering gear and rudder arrangement
• Machinery (certified Installation)
• Electrical Systems
• Workmanship "


The other type of certifications, the ones that imply a permanent following of an individual yacht during the building process is only used for ships or big yacht. The costs are on the order of several hundred of thousands of euros.
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Old 20-02-2016, 18:15   #80
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

I enjoy debating to virtues and vices of different designs as much as anyone, but really since most "coastal" boats can be modified to do just fine for "bluewater" isn't it a better question to ask "what's the difference between a coastal and bluewater sailor?" There seem to be plenty of examples of boats of all types that are able to take more abuse than the sailors can.
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Old 20-02-2016, 20:18   #81
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

Having built and worked vessels with regular ABS or DNV over site I can assure that many inspectors spend more time at a computer or in meetings than in hands on inspections.

The CG inspections that I have been through, on the other hand, served a more viable purpose.
IMNSHO
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Old 20-02-2016, 21:02   #82
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

Ah yes, those rash Colonial china clippers...the days of wooden ships and iron men.
Speaking of which, how many of those were lost at sea?


The merchants who had those ships commissioned usually knew what rounding the Horn would involve, and Lloyds or no Lloyds, they and their captains had some idea of what those ships had to be built to withstand.


Hardly the same as mass-market built-to-cost boats for today's recreational market.
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Old 20-02-2016, 21:02   #83
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Ive taken this topic from another thread which i didnt want to hijack.

It seems to me people have differences in understanding in what is Coastal Cruising, what is Ocean Cruising, and the what the safety needs of the vessel, contents, build is for each.

Comments
===

To me the difference is fairly simple. A blue water boat is built and equipped to survive a full gale on open water for 2 or 3 days with no outside assistance, whereas a coastal cruiser would and should head for nearby protected waters since survival is not guaranteed for a variety of reasons. Some of those reasons include things like strength of overall build; size and strength of hatches and opening portals; adequacy of cockpit drainage; size and number of bilge pumps; security of interior spaces such as handholds, interior furnishings; adequacy of ground tackle and storm drogues; provision for emergency steering; strength of rigging and sail handling gear; etc., etc.
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Old 20-02-2016, 21:46   #84
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

Lots of very vague and non-descript definitions.

Exactly how strong must a boat be to survive a gale offshore for 2-3 days? This is where it gets messy. Usually this is just shorthand for an overbuilt, very slow full keel boat with very limited living spaces. Unless you put specifications to it, it's a pretty meaningless definition.

Also, even the toughest built boats can go down in a gale, so technically, no boat can meet that standard. Reality is it's an odds game and the odds are very favorable for most modern cruising vessels north o 30' long.
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Old 21-02-2016, 02:40   #85
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

[QUOTE=Jim Cate;2051558]
Quote:
I still maintain that you don't understand the realities of storms at sea.

Jim
Maybe not but it appears you have drawn your conclusions from the tactics I employed during squalls in the bay which would be totally different than what I would use today if caught in a storm offshore in the boat I have now.

In the bay especially where I currently live, there is no room to run. There are bridges with islands for the tunnels made of solid rock, two major shipping channels, large buoys, and lots of boat traffic which is why I will try to keep the bow into the squall if it isn't too strong and if the sails are down and I'm motoring.

The other example I gave was to heave too which I have done several times up the bay a ways waiting to enter narrow creeks like Onancock Creek. I have a 5 hp engine so sail power is my main source of energy but this can be defeated in a narrow creek with a powerful storm/squall.

If caught in a storm offshore with gale force winds as you described today, I would at first runoff. Then as things got worse use a drogue (which I would have before venturing 200 miles or so offshore along with something like a monitor windvane)

OR

If I was tired when the thing decided to start, I may try and heave too first and see how that went

from there I'd go with what I thought was best and yes lots of it would be based on what I have experienced on 14'-16' boats in huge waves. That is huge waves on small open boats

Experience is key I believe and coming in from the ocean on a 14" boat riding the back of a 5' plus wave thru a narrow inlet teaches you things especially if you overpower and get on the downside of it....

You also learn a lot on beach cats coming through the surf line both in and out. I don't guess many monohull sailors get that experience

As far as experience, I did sail from Onancock Creek to Kiptopeke in winds to 30 mph for 4-5 hours in 2014. The worse part was almost getting beached trying to get out of the creek. I had to use the sails to help the engine going into the NW Wind. I had to steer most of t because my autopilot wouldn't keep up

I'm thinking that ride would have been much easier offshore. I had in one reef and I believe the 120 or so jib I have was totally unfurled.


Experience is key.....!
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Old 21-02-2016, 03:34   #86
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

My 5c..
Any boat should be strong enough to withstand what the sea can bring on them. No matter coastal or ocean. The difference lies in what can be expected and what are the odds depending of the sailing ground in a given time. I'd say the west Norwegian cost or North sea is more demanding than the trades. If the area in question can be anywhere so must the boat be capable to cope with allmost anything.
Storage is a concern for long crossings. Gear, fuel and water being one and proviant another. Not very 'blue' to have jerry cans and other stuff all around the rails. More sailing gear, more clothing more everything. For a long crossing a working! freezer is more important than a fridge if you have to choose one IMHO.
Crew competence and the number of them are also to match with the boat.

BR Teddy
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Old 21-02-2016, 04:58   #87
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

....methinks some of these guys are going to be on the 6 o'clock news being hoisted up into a Coast Guard helicopter just as their fully flooded dismasted 20' something boat goes under a 12 foot wave for the last time....
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Old 21-02-2016, 05:22   #88
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Especially when we have had the discussion 3,000,000,0000000000000000000 times before and the only reason why they are reposted is the person is a newby or someone is on a fishing expedition.

So I will save you the effort: ALL PEOPLE WHO SAIL A BENETEAU WILL DIE!


Over and o.u.t.


Let me rephrase that: All people that sail in any boat will die...sooner or later. That's sad but it is one of the things that makes us human.
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Old 21-02-2016, 05:30   #89
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

[QUOTE=valhalla360;2051798]Lots of very vague and non-descript definitions.

Exactly how strong must a boat be to survive a gale offshore for 2-3 days? This is where it gets messy. Usually this is just shorthand for an overbuilt, very slow full keel boat with very limited living spaces. Unless you put specifications to it, it's a pretty meaningless definition.

Also, even the toughest built boats can go down in a gale, so technically, no boat can meet that standard. Reality is it's an odds game and the odds are very favorable for most modern cruising vessels north o 30' long.[/QUOTE

Our opinions are very different..any decent offshore boat should easily survive a gale that lasted for 2 or 3 days. Fin keel spade rudder included
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Old 21-02-2016, 05:30   #90
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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My 5c..
Any boat should be strong enough to withstand what the sea can bring on them. ....
Crew competence and the number of them are also to match with the boat.

BR Teddy
There are no such boats, much less small sailboats. Only ships can do that and even those sometimes sunk.

Regarding crew competence it is hard to tell what is the required competence to can stand as much as a boat can stand but the truth is that most sailboats are abandoned by the crew much before they are in real risk of sinking and most of those crews are considered experienced and certainly were if compared with the average.
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