Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

[StuM]

Originally Posted by sailingfarmer

A coastal sailboat needs to pick its weather and run to port if the weather gets over 20 knots.

We regularly race a mixed fleet here in over 20 knots. And most of the boats are certainly not "ocean goers".

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by boatman61

To my mind if in well maintained condition all of those are capable enough without the 'Build up'.. just a dash of common sense and seamanship.


And.. a dash of insanity tossed in to make life interesting..

:thumbup: yep, it's not about the boat, it's the crew that make a boat offshore capable.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by StuM

It's either "over" or "out" - never both

it's different if it's o.u.t.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

:thumbup: yep, it's not about the boat, it's the crew that make a boat offshore capable.

I guess this statement makes sense because an offshore experienced skipper would not choose to cross oceans on a boat he felt was not capable of safely making the passage. That then covers both the boat and sailors.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by reed1v

In the old days, offshore or water sailing">blue water sailing meant you were rigged for all weather conditions. Otherwise no difference. Coastal schooners usually had shallow drafts and limited living spaces. Offshore schooners had suitable living quarters, deep drafts, and rigs for whatever they might encounter.

This is a sensible response

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Thomm, from this and your previous post in this thread, it is perfectly clear that you have little or no OFFSHORE experience. Once you have ridden out a F8+ gale at sea, you will realize that while thunderstorms in the Chesapeake can be exciting, they don't compare to a deep sea gale of the same wind strength... not at all.

If this seems unlikely to you, try asking Boatman, Evans, Nigel, or any of the other CFers who do have that experience.

And FWIW, IMO it is not equipment that defines the BWB, but the structural integrity of hull and rig, and the watertightness of the openings. If those things are good enough, the rest of the features are window dressing in terms of survival.

But of course, few cruisers ever meet survival conditions, due to prudence and good understanding of wx patterns. The ones now in Fiji... maybe not so, poor buggers.

jim

" Structural integrity of hull and rig and watertightness of the openings"

I like that. Simple with ring of truth.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Good morning Rustic Charm,

First off, I want to say that the terms have never really been defined. Which is why opinions vary so much, we don't even know what exactly we are talking about. If you look at Australia, you will see that coastal cruising is different for different parts of it. Some places have whirlpools, others, cyclones, others are isolated. Once away from Darwin, headed west, the cruiser will need a whole lot more stowage space for food stores and need to be more self-sustaining and repair capable than Sydney sailors, for instance, for whom food, fuel and water are readily available. So there is one component: the ability to be self-reliant.

The Tasmanian sailor has higher latitude issues, and i think the Tasmanian built boats tend to be built for local conditions, which will mean that the Tassie coastal cruiser is also capable of safe enough ocean crossings, she should be able to handle wind-against-the-tide situations during frontal passages in Banks Strait. If she is very small, she might, with the addition of deck cargo, to have a go at one of the long crossings, but the boat herself will definitely be ocean capable. Another factor: ocean capable. (Some new boats lack handholds. At sea, you need handholds or finger rails to move around the boat when it's really lurchy.)

Now, there are more benign places in the world to sail, Southern California, comes to mind, or maybe Queensland without thunderstorms and cyclones, most of the year. The lightly built boats do fine in both places. They wear large sails, too, half of which would not serve in Northern Calif, let alone the PNW, or the north European crowd. What seems to me to be happening is that people are now forced by their budgets into buying boats that were designed as day sailors, and maybe weekenders, then they add the "normal" safety gear that you, from Tassie, would already have, having been built into a local boat. And so, the building of entry level yachts has cut strength, and given style not particularly designed to work in a seaway and created an entry market to get people "hooked on" sailboats. Therefore, we have a moving target, for defining what we're trying to talk about.

I think the reason we have so much discussion of coastal vs. bluewater cruising is that there is no agreed upon definition, and that many CF'ers probably will not do many bluewater miles, hence don't really know what they are posting about, having only what they have read and seen videos of to give themselves an idea of what it is like, rather than having own experience. You can easily see where the conflict comes from: who has a boat, likes their boat. The guy from the PNW says it has to be able to withstand a big northern hemisphere blow. And it needs this and that to do it. The devil is in the details, because one guy thinks he needs a full keel ketch to do it safely, another says his cutaway forefoot cutter's better, another says his Beneteau is fine for it, and another chimes in with his Catamaran's a great boat.....very little consensus, and they all want to defend their boat choice. Meanwhile, I suspect the sailors are out sailing their boats rather than writing about it, weather permitting.

Ann

"The ability to be self reliant" in places of longer isolation
"Ocean capable",

Thanks, well thought reply

I was starting to suspect there was no real definition AND that lots of people perhaps think they are 'blue water', 'Ocean going', 'deep sea', knowledgeable but herhaps havnt had that experience.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

A coastal cruiser is designed with a focus on comfort and amenity in most situations.
A blue water cruiser is designed with a focus on safety and reliability in most situations.

Sent from my SGP521 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Nicely stated, Reefmagnet!

Now, if there only were a simple, easy way to point the newbies at the blue water cruisers, those guys who want to go on to become sailors of all the seas.

Better not answer that!

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by StuM View Post
It's either "over" or "out" - never both

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

it's different if it's o.u.t.

Thank you SailorBoi for you sanity.



Stop disrupting this thread. I am very in.ter.est...ed

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Thomm, from this and your previous post in this thread, it is perfectly clear that you have little or no OFFSHORE experience. Once you have ridden out a F8+ gale at sea, you will realize that while thunderstorms in the Chesapeake can be exciting, they don't compare to a deep sea gale of the same wind strength... not at all.

I wasn't trying to prove I had offshore experience whatever that means, but I do know that the Chesapeake Bay is 30 miles wide in the area where I grew up.

And when you are out 12 miles "offshore" say near Tangier Island in a 14' Sears Aluminum Boat (without a radio, life preservers, etc) with a 25 Evinrude that ain't running too well when you are 17 years old and weather comes up, you learn stuff!!......that transfers well to larger boats

What I do have is experience on how to make a sailboat sail. I also have many years on the water.

I'm still deciding whether or not I can deal with the slow pace of cruising.....but I believe knowing how to sail, being on the water for 40 plus years, sailboat racing for 15 years on boats without engines, "offshore" fishing, and simply growing up between an ocean and a bay totally qualifies me to become a cruising kinda guy should I choose to

We used to go fishing on Seaside and just bring beer and maybe water because we knew where we could dig clams for our lunch!

Do you know where to dig for clams for your lunch Jim?

[Jim Cate]

[QUOTE]And when you are out say near say Tangier Island in a 14' Sears aluminum boat with a 25 Evinrude that ain't running too well when you are 17 years old and weather come up you learn stuff!!

Well, sure, you learn "stuff", but not what a storm in the open ocean is like. Applying your experiences in a 14 foot tinnie to the question about "Blue Water" boats is not meaningful. Neither is the fact that the Chessie is 30 miles wide for that matter. And I don''t dispute that you are a good sailor, and that you have done lots of miles in small racing cats.

I still maintain that you don't understand the realities of storms at sea.

Jim

[thomm225]

[QUOTE=Jim Cate;2051558]

And when you are out say near say Tangier Island in a 14' Sears aluminum boat with a 25 Evinrude that ain't running too well when you are 17 years old and weather come up you learn stuff!!

Well, sure, you learn "stuff", but not what a storm in the open ocean is like. Applying your experiences in a 14 foot tinnie to the question about "Blue Water" boats is not meaningful. Neither is the fact that the Chessie is 30 miles wide for that matter. And I don''t dispute that you are a good sailor, and that you have done lots of miles in small racing cats.

I still maintain that you don't understand the realities of storms at sea.

Jim

Well, I've seen a few on TV, and I watched my 15 year old son and his buddies get swallowed up by a storm crossing Pensacola Bay on a Hobie 16.

As for storms at sea, I haven't had the time to venture out there to get caught in one, which is why I like reading stories on CF in case I want to sail "offshore" and get caught in a storm!

Actually, I've learned quite a bit here. First, I learned from you that you know a lot more about cruising than I do, but I also learned I know a lot more about making a sailboat turn in most any condition than you do.

That's just the difference between racers and cruisers though.

I plan to have the best Comm gear I can get when I do start cruising which means I hope to avoid storms. I also plan to start cruising on my Bristol 27 unless something better pops up

[oldragbaggers]

Lance has offshore experience, 2 trips to Bermuda, but I do not so without ever having been any further "offshore" than Catalina Island, which hardly qualifies, I am going to put my thoughts about our boat being a bluewater capable boat out there and ask that those of you with that experience correct my thinking if need be (gently please).

Starting with the design and the builder.... Carl Alberg basically designs one kind of boat. We know of a couple of Pearson Tritons and at least 3 Cape Dorys which have circumnavigated (the smallest being a 25D), and many others that have made notable passages. I'm sure there are many others but these are the ones I know of first hand. The boat is very seakindly with a great motion comfort and capsize ratio (I know those numbers have limited value, but they have some value I suspect when evaluating such things). Cape Dory has always had a reputation for building stout boats. They specifically make the claim of offshore capability on the boats 30' and over, and I think that has proven out over time. As far as the quality, we have owned 4 of them and compared to a number of the other production boats we have owned, while not perfect, we consider them of higher quality in a lot of ways.

Beyond those 2 factors now the rest is on us. Especially because the boat is now 34 years old it is up to us, first of all, to do our due diligence to make sure that every thing structural is as it should be: the integrity of the hull, deck, hull to deck joint, thru hulls, chain plates, rudder, steering apparatus, the ports and hatches and all other places water can intrude into the hull, the ability to secure hatch boards, rig, sails, and engine.

Second it is on us to make sure that she is properly equipped to do what we expect her to do, that the equipment is functioning and can be maintained/repaired (and that we know how to do so), and that all necessary safety and navigation equipment are aboard.

Lastly it is on us to know how to use her, to choose when to stay and when to go, to know how to use the equipment we have aboard, to know how to get her to the intended destination, to be familiar with all systems and all rules of navigation.

There are some who say it's all about the boat, others who say it's all about the skipper. I submit that it's a total package, and while I know that there have been those who have set off on totally inadequate boats and with very little knowledge/experience have somehow arrived safely on the other end, that sure isn't the way I would approach it.

Although extensive offshore passage making isn't currently part of our plan, we wanted a boat that would be capable of it if our plans should change. I should think that all bluewater boats could be coastal boats, but not all coastal boats should be bluewater boats.

[JPA Cate]

Becky,

It really isn't up to other people to tell you whether or not your boat is suitable. Our first Insatiable was a boat that was designed as an ocean race boat back in the days before they discovered light was fast. She was heavily constructed. She had a double in the forepeak, two quarter berths, and two pilot berths, which, over time, grew to become pile-it berths with knock-down netting, as did the port q'berth. Thus came the stowage to make an already capable boat a long distance cruiser. Lived and cruised aboard this "unsuitable" boat for 18 yrs.

You/we took what we had and made it work, and most cruisers who were out here in the old days did the same. It is a reasonable strategy. Phooey on the naysayers!

Ann

[Polux]

Originally Posted by boatman61

If your looking for a 'Yardstick'.. how about this...
Boats built to Lloyds specification are 'Blue Water'..
Everything else is meant for 'Coastal Waters'...
What owners choose to do however is a whole different ball game..

You mean Lloyds certified like Bavaria and Hanse?