Do I Need A Life Raft

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by powsmias

ran into this while looking at winter storage info on the pudgy and a good reply by pudgy in it, may lend to post.. https://www.morganscloud.com/2009/09/19/portland-pudgy/

Very interesting conversation there.

The maker of the Portland Pudgy makes all the arguments, but like the Morgan's Cloud folks, I don't really buy them.

1. Being able to sail or row is supported by a pre-EPIRB story. I don't think this is worth anything really. A backup PLB would be a far better investment.

2. Proneness to capsize is supported by the argument that normal liferafts are also prone to capsize. That's not really an argument. If they are really prone to capsize they should be improved. Capsizing liferafts kill people -- cf the Fastnet '79 stories mentioned on Morgan's Cloud.

[Leo Ticheli]

I've got the Portland Pudgy hanging on my Davits. We also have a 6-man Zodiac life raft which we carry on deck forward of the companionway. I've not decided if I'll keep the Zodiac.

I think the Pudgy with it's Exposure Canopy deployed is the better option and I like having the ability to self-rescue with the sail kit. Yes, I do have EPIRB, InReach, and Personal AIS.

I think the Pudgy is best in case of collision, fire, or catastrophic equipment failure, but if the seas are so rough that the Pudgy can't make it, I'm not at all sure a life raft would fare any better.

Fair winds,

Leo

[Pete7]

Interesting idea, not new but interesting. However, the Portland Pudgy has a maximum weight limit of 235 kgs (557 lbs). So how many of your crew members could you fit into it and which ones would you chose? AT £2000 for the Euro version its 4x the price of a UK offshore 4 man liferaft so not a cheap option. The sail kit and canopy kit another $3000.

Pete

[Bulawayo]

I think many peoples reliance on a conventional liferaft is also fraught with risks. Many of have read about the inadequacies of servicing. I also recollect reading about the Baileys who survived 117 days in their liferaft but were reliant on their hypalon Avon as their liferaft kept failing. Similarly, Steve Callaghan survived 10 weeks in his life raft whilst the Robertsons liferaft disintegrated after just 17 days and they then survived the next twenty days in their fibreglass dinghy. We can also recall the 32ft vessel, Leviathan, that disappeared without trace in the Indian Ocean - they didnt have a liferaft, just their inflatable dinghy.
The stories can go back and forth about the merits either way.
We have never had a liferaft on our cats. We have closed cell foam in our bows and transoms - supposedly enough to keep the bridge deck above water level. We are reliant on our all aluminium dinghies which are kitted out for survival - by Ocean Craft (Australian - we have no connection). These are rated as lifeboats - so similar to the lifeboats that are standard on many passenger boats/oil rigs etc. We also have storm canopies. Our craft are kept the right way up on our aft platform and shall stay that way until they float off with us in them. When at sea the survival kits are stored inside with everything lashed down securely. The bigger dinghy (3.4m) has its 25hp engine kept on its transom whilst the smaller dinghy has its little 5hp kept mounted (its 15hp engine doesnt allow it to be kept stored on the dinghy transom).
We also looked at the PP before we bought our OceanCraft's - but the safety rating, max engine capacity, load capacity (we have had 12 people in our 3.4m), costs etc convinced us to go the Aussie route.
Our survival kit contains an EPIRB and an Iridium telephone, as well as a roll up solar panel with the ability to recharge our hand held VHF, 'phone, torches etc, plus a hand operated water maker and the usual other essentials that we have put together. Some is kept in a watertight comparment within our 'tubes'.
Im not sure there is a convincing answer either way to this subject and much is dependent upon your own risk profile.

Originally Posted by Leo Ticheli

I've got the Portland Pudgy hanging on my Davits. We also have a 6-man Zodiac life raft which we carry on deck forward of the companionway. I've not decided if I'll keep the Zodiac.

I think the Pudgy with it's Exposure Canopy deployed is the better option and I like having the ability to self-rescue with the sail kit. Yes, I do have EPIRB, InReach, and Personal AIS.

I think the Pudgy is best in case of collision, fire, or catastrophic equipment failure, but if the seas are so rough that the Pudgy can't make it, I'm not at all sure a life raft would fare any better.

Fair winds,

Leo

[Sea Dreaming]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Interesting idea, not new but interesting. However, the Portland Pudgy has a maximum weight limit of 235 kgs (557 lbs). So how many of your crew members could you fit into it and which ones would you chose? AT £2000 for the Euro version its 4x the price of a UK offshore 4 man liferaft so not a cheap option. The sail kit and canopy kit another $3000.

Pete

Obviously if you have more crew than the pudgy recommends you won't be choosing a pudgy.
And, in the US, a life raft is about half the cost of a pudgy, but just lays there taking up space in hopes you never need it, therefore, not a cheap option either! The pudgy is actively used as a tender so at least you are getting use out of it.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Sea Dreaming

Obviously if you have more crew than the pudgy recommends you won't be choosing a pudgy.
And, in the US, a life raft is about half the cost of a pudgy, but just lays there taking up space in hopes you never need it, therefore, not a cheap option either! The pudgy is actively used as a tender so at least you are getting use out of it.

The Portland pudgy is ridiculous if being used as a proper dinghy to support a serious cruising lifestyle. The limitations are obvious. 'Looks like something out of Toontown. It would be unusable in 75% of our daily situations on the water, especially on windy, choppy days when the dinghy dock may be a mile or two away from the mothership.

We'd sooner climb up into our Highfield tender than into our liferaft if the need ever arose, then tow the life raft behind the tender.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

The Portland pudgy is ridiculous if being used as a proper dinghy to support a serious cruising lifestyle. The limitations are obvious. 'Looks like something out of Toontown.

We'd sooner climb up into our Highfield tender than into our liferaft if the need ever arose, then tow the life raft behind the tender.

Don't tell the folks on del Viento as I think they've done more serious cruising than most on this forum 😀


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[RPZ]

Perhaps more important than a life raft is an immersion suit. If you can not save your boat and you are definitely going to have to spend some time in the water your greatest concern should be hypothermia. Even during a hot summer the seawater temps can be rather cool even in tropical latitudes. Well fed, rested and fit you are still going to face that issue in a matter of hours or less.

I have not sailed (yet) but I have swam ( in freezing water twice), snorkeled - and mountain climbed in winter. Hypothermia kills people in summertime in mountain ranges, and I am sure it kills many people in the water when they would least expect it.

Some flotation device might be a good idea, even if it is a cheap inflatable raft to hang onto and secure your ditch bag to if caught in a rough sea.

My two cents.

[fish53]

I fished commercially for forty years in the North Atlantic and the Bering Sea and I have a 4 man SOLAS A liferaft, EPIRB, SART and survival suits on my boat.

[crabcake]

Originally Posted by fish53

I fished commercially for forty years in the North Atlantic and the Bering Sea and I have a 4 man SOLAS A liferaft, EPIRB, SART and survival suits on my boat.

[Scott Berg]

We do have a raft; after years in the outfitting business I think they do make sense IF:
--you maintain it carefully
--you know it's strengths and limitation
--you practice its use
We also carry survival suits (critical in my opinion) and a currently registered epirb.

Now keep the water out of the boat!

[fish53]

Survival suits are great and much better than any life vest but chances of survival in a survival suit are increased four fold when you are also in a raft. Your chances increase much more with a properly registered GPS EPIRB augmented by more traditional locating devices like smoke, mirrors and flares. As a survival system each item increases the efficiency of the others. I've pulled a victim out of the water that had died while drifting in a survival suit for over four days, the Coast Guard said he had been dead for three.

[RPZ]

There are flotation suits, "survival" suits and immersion suits. They are not all the same.

A good properly fitted immersion suit is much like a dry or semi dry diving suit with snugly fitting neck and cuffs, or integral gloves to prevent or inhibit the ingress of water.

If the suit does not have a lining of closed cell foam then a synthetic fleece top and bottom should be worn underneath if possible.

Anything that allows the ingress of too much water is not going to prevent hypothermia.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by SV DestinyAscen

I think it is all about diversifying your options & your personal threat tolerance. Agree that in most circumstances staying with the boat is safer - but if the boat is on fire or actually sinking - can you safely quickly retreat to your dingy? Most monohulls I've been on kept the dingy inverted on deck - 2 people pumped up on adrenaline can relatively quickly throw it overboard in an emergency, but not as quickly as inflating a life raft.

Fortunately to have never had to abandon boat - but if I had to, I'd want options. Taking the dingy and liferaft together isn't a bad idea either.

My life raft was on the foredeck under my inverted dinghy, a 100 lb aluminum RIB. My plan was to put both in the water if I needed the raft. I'm not sure that the raft would be better than the dinghy. In rough weather, both may flip. I know its easy for me to re-right the dinghy by myself, but I never tried the life raft. The dinghy has the distinct advantage that you can row it, while the life raft might just float by the only island within 500 miles. It also seems to me that the dinghy is much more strongly built.

[fish53]

Originally Posted by RPZ

There are flotation suits, "survival" suits and immersion suits. They are not all the same.

A good properly fitted immersion suit is much like a dry or semi dry diving suit with snugly fitting neck and cuffs, or integral gloves to prevent or inhibit the ingress of water.

If the suit does not have a lining of closed cell foam then a synthetic fleece top and bottom should be worn underneath if possible.

Anything that allows the ingress of too much water is not going to prevent hypothermia.

In practice the terms are used together and/or separately to address the same thing. Exposure suits are similar to or the same as what we call "deck suits" in commercial fishing. There are also rescue suits which again are similar but give up a bit of thermal protection for physical function. It is correct that the ingress of water in any sizable amount compromises any suits effectiveness. True survival suits are very cumbersome and it's a very good idea to practice often in donning, on boats I used to run I required a crewmember to be in a suit, zipped and ready for water in 30 seconds. Sounds easy until you try it under realistic circumstances. I've spent an hour in thirty degree water with an air temp of -15 while wearing a survival suit, much longer and my widow would be typing this.