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Old 21-01-2013, 22:25   #106
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

The latest.............

Quote:
PALAWAN - The Tubattaha Protective Area Management Board has convened at the Provincial Capitol Building in Puerto Princessa City to discuss the salvage of the USS Guardian minesweeper at the Tubbataha natural marine park.

Palawan Gov. Abraham Mitra said the meeting is to determine the particular stand of the different agencies related to the grounded US vessel.

Transportation Undersecretary Eduardo Oban Jr. said the Department of Transportation and Communications will set up an operation with the Philippine Coast Guard to consolidate all efforts to salvage the ship and assess the area for possible oil spill.

Rear Admiral Rodolfo Sorena, Philippine Coast Guard Commandant, said authorities are reviewing proposals on how to extract the USS Guardian from the reef. He said one recommendation is not to drag the vessel to avoid causing more damage to the reef.

The US has sent a bigger vessel to help in the extraction of the USS Guardian. The extraction may take 7-10 days.
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Old 21-01-2013, 22:28   #107
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Fleet maneuvers. Fleet orders. Fleet chain of command.

Foreign Park Rangers are not in the chain of command. Referring them to the proper superior officer (i.e. by diplomatic channel to the Navy) might also provide the answer to who stole the strawberry ice cream.

Perhaps the most pressing question is why they were even in that area to begin with. 'The site is protected by Philippine law and is off-limits to navigation except for research or tourism approved'.

Or simply another case of we're from the US we do as please?
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Old 21-01-2013, 22:39   #108
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

Personally, I think they may have been trying out their new sonar toy.
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Old 22-01-2013, 00:39   #109
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

You'd think it would be best if they did that in US waters

If it happened here on the GBR I doubt the US Navy would be welcomed back.
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Old 22-01-2013, 00:40   #110
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

Has anyone determined their destination? Or is it a secret. They were just in Manila, they are based in Japan. They were inside the Sulu sea, east of Palawan. Were they headed to Borneo? If they were going to Viet Nam, they should have been west of Palawan. I guess I'll just stay tuned.
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Old 22-01-2013, 02:37   #111
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by bewitched View Post
CM93 Edition 2 and 3 are very different. Below is P.Princessa in Ed2 and Ed 3 on the right as an example.


I've taken some positions on the southern light on the reef from a number of chart sources:

CM93 Ed3: 08 44.10 119 48.96

Navionics: 08 44.05 119 48.85

US Paper Chart: 80 44.05 119 48.8 (a bit of an approximation as no light there in 1938).

In relation to satellite overlays, I can only do this with the Navionics chart and although the satellite picture is very poor, it does seem to correlate with the chart. I certainly don't get the 8 mile discrepancy that you do. I'm certainly within a mile at the very most.

As an aside, I have a friend who has had a live-aboard dive operation on Tubbataha for more than a decade now and he assures me that they are not out by 8 miles. Just the normal couple of hundred yards.
Thanks for that very clear and informative update.
The fog seems to be clearing up
All charts old or new agree to a large extent: The southern light is roughly
8 44 N 119 49 E
As far as it can be ascertained, Google Earth sat position agrees with that:
GE sources are said to be SIO (Scripps Institution of Oceanography ?) NOAA, US Navy, GEBCO (General Bathymetric Chart of the Oceans)

From what you report from dive operators, I believe that these chart positions are correct

However Bing sat view is about 8NM off, at
842 N 119 57 E
see the pic in my previous post, this one and also this excellent blog entry
GeoGarage: Digital map error may have led to minesweeper grounding
Source is said to be Earthstar Geographics
"full service consulting firm specializing in products and services for the geospatial data industries. We are specialists in the processing of satellite imagery, and have over 20 years experience in remote sensing and satellite image processing"
from Earthstar Geographics LLC

Now, there remains the possibility that the US Navy has georeferenced some navy-restricted chart using incorrect data, possibly from Earthstar Geographics...
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Old 22-01-2013, 04:53   #112
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

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Originally Posted by AGC View Post

Park rangers radioed the USS Guardian to advise it was nearing the Tubbataha Reef on Thursday, but the ship captain insisted they raise their complaint with the US embassy, Ms Songco told reporters on Monday.
Dear god
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Old 22-01-2013, 06:59   #113
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

This never would have happened under Cap'n Queeg.
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Old 22-01-2013, 07:22   #114
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

Further ...(Yahoo news, UK)

The superintendent of Tubbataha marine park, Angelique Songco, said the ship was lying on about 10 metres of coral and that strong winds and waves were pushing it along the reef, causing further damage.

...

She questioned why the ship, which had just made a port call in Subic Bay in the Philippines, was passing through Tubbataha.

"There was an absence of good faith here. They did not even report (the grounding.) Our rangers just discovered them there. I don't know what they wanted," she said.


...ran out of ice?
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Old 22-01-2013, 07:26   #115
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

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Originally Posted by AGC View Post
"Park rangers radioed the USS Guardian to advise it was nearing the Tubbataha Reef on Thursday, but the ship captain insisted they raise their complaint with the US embassy, Ms Songco told reporters on Monday."
If the original source of this is a Filipino "news" agency, I would be skeptical of its veracity. I know firsthand that some of their less reputable papers manufacture stories.
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Old 22-01-2013, 07:33   #116
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

According to NBC (US): There's no-one aboard, the ship has now turned broadside to the reef, and has reportedly taken on some water and developed a slight port list.

[link fixed]

- sigh -
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Old 22-01-2013, 08:29   #117
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

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Originally Posted by sailorF54 View Post
Now, there remains the possibility that the US Navy has georeferenced some navy-restricted chart using incorrect data, possibly from Earthstar Geographics...
From your link it sounds like the NGA have gone off and produced charts for the US Navy which are out substantially.

Having said that, the inaccuracy isn't really the cause. The original survey data is on a very large scale chart. 8 miles is a few cm on the paper chart. The chart itself includes the caution: "This chart is intended for offshore navigation only....." So the real issue is; If they weren't going to Tubbataha, why on earth did they decide to pass so close to the reef? Inaccurate charts or no, it's cutting it a bit fine. Were they really aiming for the 15mm gap between the reefs?
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Old 22-01-2013, 08:38   #118
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by AGC View Post
"Park rangers radioed the USS Guardian to advise it was nearing the Tubbataha Reef on Thursday, but the ship captain insisted they raise their complaint with the US embassy, Ms Songco told reporters on Monday.
She said shortly after the warning, the 68-metre vessel became stuck on part of Tubbataha Reef
Eerily similar to the old joke about the aircraft carrier and lighthouse:

Americans: Please divert your course 15 degrees to the North to avoid a Collision.
Canadians: Recommend you divert YOUR course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision.
Americans: This is the Captain of a US Navy ship. I say again, divert YOUR course.
Canadians: No. I say again, you divert YOUR course.
Americans: This is the aircraft carrier USS Lincoln, the second largest ship in the United States' Atlantic fleet. We are accompanied by three destroyers, three cruisers and numerous support vessels. I demand that YOU change your course 15 degrees north, that's one five degrees north, or countermeasures will be undertaken to ensure the safety of this ship.
Canadians: This is a lighthouse. Your call.[2]
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Old 22-01-2013, 08:53   #119
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by bewitched View Post
From your link it sounds like the NGA have gone off and produced charts for the US Navy which are out substantially.

Having said that, the inaccuracy isn't really the cause. The original survey data is on a very large scale chart. 8 miles is a few cm on the paper chart. The chart itself includes the caution: "This chart is intended for offshore navigation only....." So the real issue is; If they weren't going to Tubbataha, why on earth did they decide to pass so close to the reef? Inaccurate charts or no, it's cutting it a bit fine. Were they really aiming for the 15mm gap between the reefs?
I quite agree with the points and questions you raise. But being French, I think it's not for me to comment on potential bad judgments from USN officers. Also innocent till proven guilty...
As a sailor, I'm more concerned with chart accuracy, particularly whether sat views can be used to check on the georef of chart based on old surveys...
A moot point, apparently...
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Old 22-01-2013, 09:48   #120
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Looking at the map and if they had just left Manila i would bet they were trying to make a quick run across the line to get their shellback.
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