The Delta Failed us Again.

[Tayana42]

The Delta anchor failed us again. We just had a terrible time getting a good set with our Delta. It had worked pretty well for us for 6 months anchoring in various mostly sand bottoms. This past weekend, Memorial Day, we were at Dana Point harbor with our daughter and two grandkids. The West anchorage was filled with Rafted up yacht clubs, 40 plus boats in a small anchorage. We went to the East anchorage, between the bait barge and the fuel dock, and anchored in 12 ft. (44 lb Delta on 3/8 inch g43 chain, 75 ft of chain allowing for 5 ft to the bow roller and 6 ft tide, 3:1 scope). The area is small and like others we took out a stern anchor by dinghy (35 lb Danforth on a short chain and heavy poly line). Light winds.

I awoke several times to checked our position and at 4:00 AM we were dragging... slowly. I woke my wife at 4:20 AM (never a pleasant thing to do) and we began the process of re-setting. First, I was unable to bring up the stern anchor. I had dropped it in shallower water near the breakwater and could not bring the boat over it to winch it up vertically. I tried from the dinghy but couldn't break it out so I buoyed it and cast it off to deal with it later. We then reposition the boat and dropped the Delta again and backed down to set it slowly increasing rims up to 2500. It seemed to want to hold but kept moving slowly back without stopping. We brought it up and tried again. We did this 8 more times without success. At about 7 AM (yes, we had been at this for two and a half hours) I brought the Delta on deck (not easy) and changed it out for our 44 lb Bruce. The Bruce caught and held on the first attempt.

On reflection, in the light of day, I think the problem was that the bottom was soupy mud over a harder mud/clay substrate and the Delta just could not get through the soft stuff to dig into the harder bottom. The Bruce held and the Danforth wouldn't let go. I am not happy with the thought of a repeat of that night ever again even though we were in no danger and conditions were benign. So I am moving to a next generation anchor and probably a size up.

However, I'd still be interested to hear if anyone familiar with Dana Point has had a similar problem in the East basin or can comment on what I could have done differently.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by Tayana42

The Delta anchor failed us again. We just had a terrible time getting a good set with our Delta. It had worked pretty well for us for 6 months anchoring in various mostly sand bottoms. This past weekend, Memorial Day, we were at Dana Point harbor with our daughter and two grandkids. The West anchorage was filled with Rafted up yacht clubs, 40 plus boats in a small anchorage. We went to the East anchorage, between the bait barge and the fuel dock, and anchored in 12 ft. (44 lb Delta on 3/8 inch g43 chain, 75 ft of chain allowing for 5 ft to the bow roller and 6 ft tide, 3:1 scope). The area is small and like others we took out a stern anchor by dinghy (35 lb Danforth on a short chain and heavy poly line). Light winds.

I awoke several times to checked our position and at 4:00 AM we were dragging... slowly. I woke my wife at 4:20 AM (never a pleasant thing to do) and we began the process of re-setting. First, I was unable to bring up the stern anchor. I had dropped it in shallower water near the breakwater and could not bring the boat over it to winch it up vertically. I tried from the dinghy but couldn't break it out so I buoyed it and cast it off to deal with it later. We then reposition the boat and dropped the Delta again and backed down to set it slowly increasing rims up to 2500. It seemed to want to hold but kept moving slowly back without stopping. We brought it up and tried again. We did this 8 more times without success. At about 7 AM (yes, we had been at this for two and a half hours) I brought the Delta on deck (not easy) and changed it out for our 44 lb Bruce. The Bruce caught and held on the first attempt.

On reflection, in the light of day, I think the problem was that the bottom was soupy mud over a harder mud/clay substrate and the Delta just could not get through the soft stuff to dig into the harder bottom. The Bruce held and the Danforth wouldn't let go. I am not happy with the thought of a repeat of that night ever again even though we were in no danger and conditions were benign. So I am moving to a next generation anchor and probably a size up.

However, I'd still be interested to hear if anyone familiar with Dana Point has had a similar problem in the East basin or can comment on what I could have done differently.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hello,
Your boat is almost 13 meters long and her weight is (cruising mode) probably somewhere around 16 - 17 tons. It make for new gen (SHHP) anchor of about 70 - 75 lb. Your 44 lb Delta is just a toy for Your boat I believe. As a HHP anchor it should be 88 lb - twice as big as Yours - to match 70 lb SHHP.

Forget about Lewmar's sizing chart for Delta - for cruising boat it is a joke

Cheers,

Tomasz

[Adventurebound]

Test results I've seen show that it is unreliable.[back to the never ending story]

[Cheechako]

Every anchor has it thorns. I've also found that bow and stern anchoring often takes a lot of anchor watching... especially where there are tidal currents or wind shifts. The Delta was likely going thru the mud but wouldn't grab on the clay or hard pan underneath. The stern anchor, if currents are around, makes the pull on the bow much worse.
Your anchor is pretty small.
It's good to have different types of anchors for different conditions. The Bruce may work well in your situation and in rocks. It may happily drag along quickly in sand though when the Delta works pretty good. No 100% answers proven in one anchor.... yet.

[colemj]

I don't know anything about the bottom there, but 3:1 scope is pretty short in 12' - particularly for a Delta anchor. For any anchor, it is not a recommended scope ratio in that shallow of water. The Bruce is better known for setting on short scope, so that is probably why it caught.

You were not specific with what "benign" conditions were, but generally, a stern anchor can work against the setting and holding of the main bow anchor. We avoid stern anchors unless situations absolutely demand them and we have no other choice. We have not had that situation yet in almost 6yrs of full-time cruising.

If the bottom was soupy mud, then a danforth-style anchor is the best bet. Again, you didn't describe "benign". Our boat will almost hold on its chain only in winds up to 10kts. Of course, we would have had more chain out...

You won't go wrong with a new-generation anchor, but you may still find yourself in similar circumstances on a 3:1 scope in soupy bottom.

Mark

[sailorboy1]

too small an anchor in my mind, especially on short scope

what size NG anchor are you going with (I think for your boat around 80#)

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

It's good to have different types of anchors for different conditions. The Bruce may work well in your situation and in rocks. It may happily drag along quickly in sand though when the Delta works pretty good. No 100% answers proven in one anchor.... yet.

Oh boy, an anchor thread!

While I agree with this statement in the most extreme cases, I don't agree that it is generally true. We have found that the newer anchors work so generally, in so many bottom conditions, in such a range of weather, that they are pretty much a general answer to anchors.

We keep a Fortress on board for cases where our main anchor may have problems in very soft mud. We have never had to use it yet.

I can imagine extraordinary bottom conditions where a grapple hook or fisherman may be useful. We avoid these bottom conditions at all costs.

Get a properly-sized modern anchor and I doubt you will ever be using any other anchor style due to conditions. Maybe a Danforth-style in thin mud and high winds…

Mark

[Robin3]

what was the applied force to make the boat start to drag? wind, current, rampant sea horses, over enthusiastic heads discharge pumping? or what?, the anchor may not be holding in the poor bottom but the boat cannot just start to move on it's own surely unless some external push or pull force is applied. Anchoring fore/aft is sometimes unhelpful if the boat then gets held side on to wind, waves, swell or current as it is like trying to walk whilst carrying a door or a surfboard into the wind

[colemj]

Those damn rampant seahorses cause all sorts of grief. And they poop on everything.



Mark

[Magnawake]

I am under the assumption that you go up one size for the anchor sizing chart. I have a Delta 55 and normally pay out 75-100 ft of chain, no matter what. If I used a 3:1 scope, I couldnt set it either. I set it very slowly and dont even back down on it. I can pull it out easily. However, I let the weight of the boat set the anchor and it takes time. It must go pretty deep considering how long it takes to retrieve it. I've never had any problems yet (knocking on wood) but be patient setting it and getting it back.

[Brown Sugar]

I'm in the process of upgrading my anchoring system and came across this article that you might want to look at. http://northpacificresearch.com/down...d_revealed.pdf
The numbers he uses about scope and anchor load were eye opening to me.

[Adventurebound]

Originally Posted by Brown Sugar

I'm in the process of upgrading my anchoring system and came across this article that you might want to look at. http://northpacificresearch.com/down...d_revealed.pdf
The numbers he uses about scope and anchor load were eye opening to me.

Should provide some more accurate conclusions. My next boat might be a submarine-less calculations?

[onestepcsy37]

your scope is useless and your anchor is a joke for your size boat.

it MIGHT have held if your scope was closer to 10:1. i also anchor in soft mud (halifax river, florida) so can speak from personal experience.

upgrade to a 60 lb manson supreme. the delta is the wrong shape for mud - i don't even like it for sand.

the only thing you've done right is to use 3/8" chain. get more.

sorry to be so abrupt but i happen to like your boat and would hate to see it pounded to death on the rocks...

[Stu Jackson]

You have three choices:

1. Get a bigger Delta

2. Get an even bigger CQR

3. Get a properly sized new gen anchor

Sorry, I just couldn't resist. Sorry to hear about your travails, but the reality is that sizing an anchoring SYSTEM requires one to deal with wind strength, components, and the bottom. Hard to mix and match.

I really do NOT understand the complacency of many skippers who travel around with Model T Ford anchors when you could even get a new Hyundai which would do far better.

Not to start anchoring wars all over again. Really.

It seems to me, and always has, "What is your ENTIRE boat worth to you?" compared to the cost of a properly sized anchoring system?

Starting with rope-on-a-rock, things have changed and improved.

[Greenhand]

I thought 3:1 was quite minimal, barely suitable for a lunch hook, even with chain.