Photos of Anchors Setting

[bazzer]

All of these photos are great, but they are all done in loose sand, much like the sand box test as done by Ultra in all of the shows.
The design of the Mantus might be good in the conditions shown, but in my view made of substandard materials.
The latest Rocna might be the way to go, but my Bugel works just fine. Would I recommend it? No, because it is made from stainless steel and is expensive.
Using a high quality anchor swivel is a must for me, chain twist may be the reason that some of the anchors shown in the photos are rolled to one side and not set correctly. Check out the photos to see what happened to a cheap anchor swivel.
Beware of copies of all anchor types, they are certainly made from very substandard materials and are likely to fail when you need them most.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[colemj]

Originally Posted by bazzer

All of these photos are great, but they are all done in loose sand

Yeah Noelex - when are you going to get around to moving a bit? I would like to see all of your anchors setting in Great Lakes duckweed, Chesapeake soup mud, Falkland gravel and Japan Kelp. Can you go get these data in the next month?

Mark

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by bazzer

in my view made of substandard materials.

To make it clear about the materials, my anchor has the original 283 MPa shank. Mantus have since upgraded the shank to ASTM 514 which has a minimum yield strength of 690 Mpa. This is identical to Bisplate 80 used on the Manson and slightly better than the current Rocna shank although the differences are small.

The Bugel is of course stainless steel, giving freedom from having to re-galvanise the anchor . If you want you can order most anchor designs in stainless steel, but then the yield strength drops to 205mPa or 170 Mpa, depending if 316 or 316L is used (I think it is the former for the Bugel).

Many other manufacturers do not specify the steel used in their shanks.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by colemj

Yeah Noelex - when are you going to get around to moving a bit?

If we drag overnight we will end up in Turkey, would that be enough?

[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

To make it clear about the materials, my anchor has the original 283 MPa shank. Mantus have since upgraded the shank to ASTM 514 which has a minimum yield strength of 690 Mpa. This is identical to Bisplate 80 used on the Manson and slightly better than the current Rocna shank although the differences are small.

The Bugel is of course stainless steel, giving freedom from having to re-galvanise the anchor . If you want you can order most anchor designs in stainless steel, but then the yield strength drops to 205mPa or 170 Mpa, depending if 316 or 316L is used (I think it is the former for the Bugel).

Many other manufacturers do not specify the steel used in their shanks.

I find it very interesting that most people don't realize that most (all?) stainless is weaker than high tensile carbon steel. And most modern anchors are optimized to dive in a straight line, so they have skinny shanks that don't impede the dive. In my opinion, this means they really need to have high tensile steel and to have quite tall shank profiles (as in, if they're made from fairly thin plate, the dimension perpendicular to the plate thickness needs to be large to increase the resistance to bending).

[bazzer]

Originally Posted by cwyckham

I find it very interesting that most people don't realize that most (all?) stainless is weaker than high tensile carbon steel. And most modern anchors are optimized to dive in a straight line, so they have skinny shanks that don't impede the dive. In my opinion, this means they really need to have high tensile steel and to have quite tall shank profiles (as in, if they're made from fairly thin plate, the dimension perpendicular to the plate thickness needs to be large to increase the resistance to bending).

Yes indeed SS is weaker than some other steels. But my point is that a properly designed anchor should not bend in the first place. The Bugel shaft is pretty big and on my 35kg job I can't see it bending at all. Both the Rocna and the Mantus both have had shaft issues. I also jab a CQR hanging off the bowsprit and I think I'm right in saying the shaft on it is forged and it's very strong. Old design which has been around for
Many years and it just plain works once it is set.
I also question a bolt together anchor, I'd rather see a good solid weld

As far as Nolex goes I would like to thank him for a great job of his photos and insight.
If I am able to get my Hans Christian out in the next couple of weeks I'll dive and take a photo or two of any anchors I can find down in San Diego


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Sos]

Originally Posted by bazzer

I also question a bolt together anchor, I'd rather see a good solid weld
Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

The trouble with welds is that they can look good but not be strong due to lack of penetration.
The weld would have to be ultra sonically tested to ensure it is good. All downto the manufactures quality control. I think the Mantus has a plate welded to the end of the shaft?
Bolts are a known quantity in regards to strength and as long as they have 'Nylock' type nuts should not be a problem.

I for one like the look of the Mantus going by Noelex's great pictures.

[kas_1611]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Just dropped our trusty Delta this afternoon with a fairly stiff wind blowing and swirling a little round the bay. Having swum over it and dived down as far as my ears would allow me ( we are in 11.5m water) it has set in a similar fashion to noelex's picture above. Slight list to port with the port fluke well dug in after what appears to have been a 2m slide sideways. The slide is due to the bow being blown off by a strong gust approximately 45º to the norm.

Have been monitoring all afternoon using the GPS and transits and we haven't moved an inch, with the exception of the 170º dance our boat always does on anchor. So I am confident it will hold given it is holding in around 15kts currently and the wind is forecast to drop overnight.

I don't have a waterproof camera so can't get a pic myself but also can't get deep enough to get a good picture anyway but might have a morning swim over to see what it looks like tomorrow.

For those that are interested we use the 2:1, 3:1 then 4:1 (that is drop with 2x depth, wait, then pay out slowly to 3x, wait then pay out to 4x) technique to set our anchor and apply reverse to confirm it is holding. Watch for at least 30minutes on the chartplotter before setting the snubber.

Using this technique with our Delta we have slept soundly with 25kts blowing and have even withstood many good 35kt gusts.

Cheers

Keiron

[noelex 77]

We moved to new anchorage. It is an ancient Roman marble quarry which is literally on the beach. Unfinished columns still stand at the water's edge. Unfortunately the bottom is rocky. I should have guessed that, right .

It was a struggle finding a patch free from rock. This was the set in 8m @ 4:1:
The anchor is level and has dug in reasonably quickly (within a shank length), although not as rapidly as normal. The fluke is only about a third buried. The anchor held our "full reverse for 30 seconds" test which seems the equivalent of 25-30 knots of wind. However, I don't consider this set acceptable.

Many people in this part of the world snorkel and take a look at the anchor. Unfortunately, even if the anchor is lying on its side totally unset, they seem happy. "Yes, it is on the bottom" seems their sole criterion .

A poke with a dive knife showed that there was rock under the sand. This is one of the common bad substrates. The large surface area of some of the modern anchors, like the Mantus, will often hold sufficiently well in the thin layer of sand above the rock, but as it has no chance to dig in deeper, the holding power is limited. My guess is anything much over 30 knots and it would start dragging.



The second photo shows the rocks which covered most of the bottom:



In cases like this a re-drop is sensible, hoping to find a patch of deeper sand, which is what we did. Photos to follow.

[noelex 77]

This was the result after the re-drop. It was getting a bit late by this stage so the light was poor for the photo. Don't be put of by the disturbed sand. The anchor was not dragging, but the photo was taken only a couple of minutes after the set (my mermaid is quick).

The set is OK rather than fantastic. The top of the fluke is buried, but a small amount of the underside is exposed. The anchor has a slight list. On the positive side it has buried without heaping up the sand.

It is a bit worse than the excellent sets the Mantus has been doing up to now. Is this a result of the difficult substrate, or is the bend having some influence? Regardless, this result is still much better than I see from the vast majority of anchors.

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by Sos

That is an interesting idea - do you have any trouble with the line getting tangled in the chain/anchor when set? Is it a problem when retrieving, I assume you use a windlass?

I've not had any problems of tangling with my trip line yet.

I tried for several months using a 3 metre (10 ft) tag line that I could buoy before dropping if I felt the need. When using a buoy, I had enough cases of tangle to abandon that technique.

My 10 metre (30 ft) trip line is 10 mm line attached by a shackle to the trip line hole of my Rocna. The trip line terminates in an eye splice. I have a length of double sided velcro attached to the eye splice.

When sailing, the trip line is coiled and fastened on deck. I drop the anchor and pay out chain and the trip line. At an appropriate point, I reeve the velcro through a chain link.

When retrieving, I use a windlass. And stop when the trip line comes into reach. Strip and the velcro and then proceed with the windlass retrieving the chain while I manage the trip line.

The trip line has added steps to the process. It's a trial.

Alan

[Sos]

Originally Posted by Alan Mighty

The trip line has added steps to the process. It's a trial. Alan

It sounds promising. I have used a trip line and buoy in a snaggy harbour on Lanzarote and
had people looking to pick it up - there wasn't much room - and got it wrapped around one
of our props, so this method is worth investigating. Thanks for the info.

[noelex 77]

The wind overnight was hard to quantify. Overall, the average was quite light at perhaps 15 knots, but there were some prolonged gusts that were well over double.

This is the result this morning:

The Mantus has buried a bit more. Comparing landmarks in the sand it has barely moved back (an inch or so) in doing this. The fluke, including the underneath, is now almost completely covered.

So far, the effect of the bent shank seems to be quite minor with the anchor having a little less roll stability and adopting a slight list when normally it would be level. Given the small angle involved this should only have a small effect on the performance. The setting distance is also just a little longer.

It is very surprising how well it is doing.

[Hydra]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Another boat in the anchorage today.
This one has a Brittany anchor. This is quite a popular anchor in Europe, especially with French sailors. It is an inexpensive anchor.

It is a bit like a Danforth, but without the stock. It also shares a lot of properties with the Danforth in that it has very high holding power in soft bottoms, but struggles a bit in other substrates. It seems better than the Danforth in coping with changes in direction of pull, but it is still not as good in this regard as most anchors. It is a good cheap stern anchor (but get a Fortress if you can afford it). The lack of a wide stock makes it a bit easier to store and deploy in this role.

Catching up with the thread...
In fact, this is not a Britany but a "FOB HP" anchor, made by FOB, another French anchor company.

Alain

[Hydra]

Originally Posted by Alan Mighty

I've not had any problems of tangling with my trip line yet.

I tried for several months using a 3 metre (10 ft) tag line that I could buoy before dropping if I felt the need. When using a buoy, I had enough cases of tangle to abandon that technique.

My 10 metre (30 ft) trip line is 10 mm line attached by a shackle to the trip line hole of my Rocna. The trip line terminates in an eye splice. I have a length of double sided velcro attached to the eye splice.

When sailing, the trip line is coiled and fastened on deck. I drop the anchor and pay out chain and the trip line. At an appropriate point, I reeve the velcro through a chain link.

When retrieving, I use a windlass. And stop when the trip line comes into reach. Strip and the velcro and then proceed with the windlass retrieving the chain while I manage the trip line.

The trip line has added steps to the process. It's a trial.

Alan

Thanks for the idea. For a few years, I have been using a trip line with the "upper" end made fast to the chain, to avoid using a buoy, but I had trouble preventing the line from tangling with the chain.

Alain