Ha! I finally, after 5 years, had a chance to use my Mantus M1 Chain Hook... and...

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Marathon1150

Two things:

1. the soft shackle will not fit through the chain link on my 3/8" chain, hence the sling. the picture clearly shows the sling going through a link, not around it as it would with a Prussik knot (as an old, ex climber (i.e. before Jumars etc became more prevalent), I am familiar with these knots);
2. Much depends on the configuration of pulpit, anchor roller, windlass etc at the bow. On some boats I am sure that it is easy to attach a chain hook with good effect. On my boat(s) it isn't. This set up is much better.

What size dyneema is your SS made from? I think SWL used 6 mm and it fit in 10 mm chain easily.

Secondly, I guess I don't really understand how your sling works. I'm not a climber and thought a sling was simply an endless loop. Could you kindly describe what it looks like when not threaded through the chain.

And thirdly, I have been lucky, I guess, in that the bow rollers on both my long term cruising boats have been wide enough that the chain hook just rolls on over whilst attached to the chain. This means that I can hook up just as the chain leaves the windlass, keep light tension on the snubber and ease it out as far as I want.

Anyhow, there are a lot of ways to skin this cat, and most of them seem to work... most of the time!

Jim

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Marathon1150

Two things:



1. the soft shackle will not fit through the chain link on my 3/8" chain, hence the sling. the picture clearly shows the sling going through a link, not around it as it would with a Prussik knot (as an old, ex climber (i.e. before Jumars etc became more prevalent), I am familiar with these knots);

2. Much depends on the configuration of pulpit, anchor roller, windlass etc at the bow. On some boats I am sure that it is easy to attach a chain hook with good effect. On my boat(s) it isn't. This set up is much better.

Looking at the photo the “sling” appears to be a continuous loop but it can’t be because you obviously passed it through a chain link?

When I first started using a soft shackle instead of a rolling hitch to attach my snubber I initially made a soft shackle like yours that turned out to be too thick to fit through a chain link. But I realized that I could downsize my softshackle to easily fit through a chain link and it would still be much stronger than the nylon it’s attached to. My snubber is 30’ long and has a stainless eye that I spliced into one end so the soft shackle doesn’t cut into the nylon. Near the other end of the snubber there’s a sliding length of chafe gear that I position to be where it passes over the bow roller or through the chock. . My boat has 2 bow rollers that are staggered with the one my SPADE is kept on being further forward and the other one further back, barely extending beyond the bow, so I usually use it to route my snubber through it rather than through a chock. If I expect big waves I’d route it through a chock so it couldn’t jump out of the bow roller.

I had a chain hook that worked fine if I was careful to keep tension on it, but I accidentally dropped the short snubber it was attached to into some murky water. So for years I used a modified rolling hitch with no problems. But I think it was Evan Starzinger who showed that rolling hitches and even modified rolling hitches always slip at high loads when you really need your snubber to not slip. So I started using the setup I described above snd so far am very happy with it.

[Marathon1150]

My soft shackle is a Marlow 11mm. I was not able to get it through a chain link, which is unfortunate because simpler is better - adding the sling adds a second point of potential failure. This discussion prompts me to consider getting a thinner soft shackle - the 11mm is rated at 13,331 while the 9mm is rated at 7,981kg breaking strength. The latter should be adequate most of the time.

Regarding the sling and this quote from Jim Cates:

"Secondly, I guess I don't really understand how your sling works. I'm not a climber and thought a sling was simply an endless loop. Could you kindly describe what it looks like when not threaded through the chain."

His understanding is correct - it is an endless loop. As in the photo, I stick one end of the loop through a chain link and double the sling over, putting the shackle through the two end loops coming out of the chain.

I would also agree with him that attaching the sling to the chain with a Prussik knot should work well. Applying the knot would be slightly more complicated than slipping the sling through the chain, but certainly doable.

And lastly, his comment about skinning cats and things working "most of the time" is right on the button. The cat thing is one of the things that makes sailing so interesting for me - learning and devising new solutions to old problems. And "most of the time" is absolutely correct - there seem to be no solutions for all problems that work all of the time.

When I was much more agile than I am now, hanging off the front of the boat attaching a chain hook and snubber to the chain wasn't as big deal as it is now. The situation is further complicated by Beneteau's bow design of the era where they must have assumed that nobody was ever going to drop an anchor. The installed anchor roller was a bad joke that few people would leave unmodified. Our B 1150 has gone through several anchor roller upgrades and the current one works very well except when needing to attach a snubber. This may sound like a contradiction but it further illustrates the "most of the time" phenomenon that describes sailing and sailing gear so well.

[Shrew]

Weird, I've used Mantus M1 Chain Hooks for years. Neither myself, nor my wife has issues connecting or disconnecting it. We have never snapped the gate, though they do sell replacements for $4.00 USD.

[Hartleyg]

OK, y'all goaded me into taking a picture..


Here's my "soft shackle on the end of the snubber" - note that it's cow-hitched onto the thimble on the end of the snubber (which is tied up out of the picture on the RH side).





(I figured out my problem getting pictures to post!)


The lighter-blue loop is 2mm Dyneema, and serves two purposes - it makes it easier to open the loop, and also to thread the loop thru the chain. I also left the tails out of the diamond knot long to make it easier to manipulate. Its made of 3/16" Amsteel (not 1/4" like I said before).


I made it this way because I didn't want any loose parts - with a two or three part assembly, I would loose one overboard probably sooner than later


Also note we haven't actually used this yet! I am curious as to how well the Amsteel will wear against the chain, and also how easy it will be to put on & off. By June we should know!



Hartley
S/V Atsa

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Marathon1150

With apologies (and thanks!) to the person who posted this pic, this is the soft shackle, dyneema sling combination. It should work fine with the Mantus bridle.

That was my photo, no worries.

The sling is in a basket configuration, with one end of the loop threaded through the chain link. The soft shackle goes through the two ends of the sling.

We have 1/2” / 12/13mm chain. The soft shackle is made from 8mm Dyneema. The soft shackle fits, but is very tight, through the link. More importantly, it chafes inside the link. So we use relatively cheap climbing slings that are made from Dyneema webbing to make the connection with the chain.

[PetePetePete]

Originally Posted by Shrew

Weird, I've used Mantus M1 Chain Hooks for years. Neither myself, nor my wife has issues connecting or disconnecting it. We have never snapped the gate, though they do sell replacements for $4.00 USD.

+ $8.50 shipping. LOL.

[Jim Cate]

His understanding is correct - it is an endless loop. As in the photo, I stick one end of the loop through a chain link and double the sling over, putting the shackle through the two end loops coming out of the chain.

.

Ahaa! Thanks for that explanation, Marathon.

And yep, I can see that an 11 mm SS would be far too fat to go through the link. My belief is that such a size is WAY overkill. As I said, Seaworthy Lass and Nolex have used much smaller sizes successfully... and they, like us, are full time anchor-outs. I tend to take their advice as gospel...

Good luck with your further experiments with anchoring gear, and please report any interesting developments.

Jim

[B_Hunter45]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Just use a rolling hitch (modified). Easy to tie, secure on chain, nothing to break.

Can somebody please post a picture or explain how rolling hitch (modified) is used on a chain?

I know the regular rolling hitch, never used it on a chain.

Thanks

[chrisr]

we don't have a mantus hook, however we use a few turns of electrical tape to hold our chain hook in place and this would work just as well with the mantus

of course the 'lecie tape might not last forever but we've been anchor down for 8 -9 weeks without any sign of it breaking down or peeling off so looks good enough for us...

cheers,

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by B_Hunter45

Can somebody please post a picture or explain how rolling hitch (modified) is used on a chain?



I know the regular rolling hitch, never used it on a chain.



Thanks

I used to take an additional wrap around rope before the final half hitch, then add another half hitch. But there are other modifications too. It’s fine for normal conditions but i was surprised to learn it doesn’t take a huge amount of force to make it slip. Also, the modified rolling hitch does a pretty good job of staying in place if tension is relieved but occasionally a normal rolling hitch will get really loose or even come untied if tension is relieved or is intermittent. I used it successfully for years but I didn’t make it a habit to anchor in very strong winds that might cause it to slip.

If there’s a chance you might occasionally find yourself anchored in strong winds I think a good hook or a soft shackle make a more secure attachment to your anchor chain. A modified rolling hitch is the cheapest and is very easy to tie and works fine 99% of the time and if you’re aboard your boat and your chain starts to slip through your rolling hitch you’ll probably notice the tension in the chain by sound before your windlass is damaged and can then use a dock line to rig another one with a soft shackle, then let out more chain. But why not just use a dyneema soft shackle to start with? Seaworthy lass has posted some very good directions on how to tie one and I think it’s fun to make for yourself, or you can just buy one online for under $20.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by B_Hunter45

Can somebody please post a picture or explain how rolling hitch (modified) is used on a chain?

I know the regular rolling hitch, never used it on a chain.

Thanks

I don't have any pics of my hitch setup -- it's not really very photogenic. But there are lots of 'how-tos' and images online. I tend to put at least three wraps, and sometimes four or five before adding the final hitch. My rode is 3/8" chain.

The slipping thing has come up in the past. I routinely sit through Newfoundland gales and the occasional storm. Mine has not slipped (to my knowledge). I looked up the Practical Sailor piece by Beth Leonard (Evans Startzinger is her partner).

They do indeed find the rolling hitch can slip, although the modified one is better. But most of the testing was done on smoother surfaces like wire or rope. They do comment that it slips a lot less on chain or other rough surfaces.

There are other hitches that people recommend. I've not tried them, I guess because I've not seen any problem with the rolling hitch (modified).

The soft shackle looks like a good approach. I'd like to try it. It does add another point of failure, so that's something to consider.

[PetePetePete]

Originally Posted by chrisr

we don't have a mantus hook, however we use a few turns of electrical tape to hold our chain hook in place and this would work just as well with the mantus

of course the 'lecie tape might not last forever but we've been anchor down for 8 -9 weeks without any sign of it breaking down or peeling off so looks good enough for us...

cheers,

Don't laugh... although I wasn't planning on solving my problem with electrical tape, I believe that I am going to design something that is far better than that silly plastic clip.

[Safari38LH]

I took ours off. We have never use it and the chain never has slipped out - just keep tension on the chain at all times. We use it every time we anchor, more than 300 days in the last two years.

Originally Posted by PetePetePete

...can you guess what happened?

I'm anchored up for the night (just one night) at a local anchorage with my daughter for some quality time...

The wind is set to blow around 25 and I'm in 3' of water with 30' of chain. So... thought, this is great time to use the Mantus Bridle I never used. LOL...

We set it all up, I go to swing the "black plastic retainer" back... and !!!SNAP!!!

LOL... Ok... well... let's put that back in the bag. LOL.

So. Questions.

1) I see they now have an M2... which I'm not going to buy. Because... well... nah.
2) The reviews on the M1 don't look so great (I do love their anchor, however!)... so I'm wondering a few things.

a) Is it worth it to order the new plastic or is that just going to turn to crap too?
b) Is there a better way to modify that clip? My son is sorta a whiz at looking at that sorta thing and saying "I have a better idea"... so I'm wondering what you guys are doing? Naturally I can just remove it and go for something totally different too...

Talk to me.

Thanks,
Pete

[Tudorsailor]

My two pennyworth is to say to the OP that one should use a snubber whenever you anchor.

Windlasses are not designed to resist repeated longitudinal load. A snubber line with chain hook are much cheaper than a replacement windlass.



TS