Anchoring Protocol revised

[thinwater]

"1. Winds were 40-50 mph.
2. Waves were rolling in from the Med at about 5-6 feet."


Realistically, no one was going anywhere. Unless you are actively dragging, believe you will be momentarily, or your boat is taking structural damage (not just rash and a bent railing), you're going to sit still. You could let out scope, but you probably could not physically take it in. I would consider taking out a second anchor to one side and forward, if possible, so that I could hang to a V and kedge myself over to one side, but I'm betting there was a boat there too.



Sounds like a lot of people anchored in a bad situation. Something was bound to go wrong. With that forecast, the best answer is obviously to planning on being somewhere else, even if it wasn't the place you had in mind.

[zboss]

Originally Posted by Steve Bedford

After reading all of the responses, I will clarify.
1. Winds were 40-50 mph.

So having been in a situation where our boat and another boat made contact while both anchored in 40 knots of wind and having then engaged our respective insurance... at least in the USA anything over 30 or 40ish is considered "storm" conditions where it is unreasonable to expect that you move a boat that is reasonably berthed - both parties need to take reasonable care and at-fault is significantly limited.

It was also determined that things like AIS tracks and GPS tracks are not really useful in an investigation such as this one. They simply don't have the accuracy to determine if someone has only dragged 10-15-20 feet, which can make the different between contact and non-contact.

This was between Pantaneous and Markel.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

… The deal is that 0 dark thirty, all you can really take responsibility for is your own vessel and her actions, in as humane a way as possible for yourselves and all the other people in the anchorage.... It's not fair, and you can fantasize about reasoning so astutely with the guy that he moves and re-anchors all you want, but your actions needs must be to get out of his way...however you find you can do that.

+1

I think this is the most important point. Like I said, it’s everyone’s responsibility to avoid a collision, even at anchor. All you can really control is your own actions, so if you’re dealing with a belligerent idiot, the only thing you can really do is take action.

But I think Thin is correct; if those are the conditions in the anchorage, it’s unreasonable to expect boats to haul up and re-anchor — not unless you’re in imminent and serious danger. I think the best I could do is to let out more rode, load up fenders, and do as the OP did: keep a close watch.

[Simi 60]

There's a lot to be said for avoiding crowded anchorages like the plague and having gear suitable enough to park well away from everyone in what for most would be deemed an unsuitable anchorage.

[JPA Cate]

If the conditions had not been so difficult, one option would have been to offer to loan the guy who looked like he was dragging an anchor, so that he could "V" himself, as thinwater suggested. This strategy has helped us to hold when anchored in sustained 50-60 knots, in an anchorage with variable bottom and holding. This is one of the circumstances when a competent dinghy with a reasonable size outboard is a really good deal.

I have to say, it takes someone with a really cool head to try and be nice when someone is behaving belligerently: I don't think I could manage it, to tell the truth.

Ann

[Don C L]

I think I mentioned in another thread that I have a good old friend who used to carry a samurai sword on his boat. When someone came in anchoring poorly and/or belligerently he would come out on deck, out to the end of the bowsprit, whip out that sword, wave it menacingly and shower the offender with all manner of threats, usually to his family jewels, to which the offender would almost certainly decide to pull up his anchor and move away.
Seemed to work for him!

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Don C L

I think I mentioned in another thread that I have a good old friend who used to carry a samurai sword on his boat. When someone came in anchoring poorly and/or belligerently he would come out on deck, out to the end of the bowsprit, whip out that sword, wave it menacingly and shower the offender with all manner of threats, usually to his family jewels, to which the offender would almost certainly decide to pull up his anchor and move away.
Seemed to work for him!

May have worked for him, Don, but in many jurisdictions, that constitutes assault and could result in legal action. And in some other jurisdictions, the other chap just might pull out a firearm and have a preemptive go at the Samurai Warrion threatening him!

Jim

[Paul L]

In the heat of a 2am anchoring CF it can be hard to determine who is dragging, if anybody. I don't buy the logic that its blowing 40+kts so you can't move. It takes a fair amount of engine and good coordination with the bow, but it can be done. Probably with less risk than trying to take another anchor out with the dinghy.
I was in blow during the silly season in NZ. 2am and this boat that had anchored 3 boat lengths ahead of us was really close just ahead of my beam as we both swung. He was in the cockpit and belligerantly telling me I had dragged - upwind somehow. I suggested he let some scope out so we would be further apart. No go, so we just upped anchor and moved away. Definitely a pain, but better than dealing with a potential crash all night.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

May have worked for him, Don, but in many jurisdictions, that constitutes assault and could result in legal action. And in some other jurisdictions, the other chap just might pull out a firearm and have a preemptive go at the Samurai Warrion threatening him!

Jim

Back in the good old days when drug running was more of a cowboy thing in the Caribbean, I have twice had a gun pulled on me in an anchoring situation. Once in the Bahamas and once in the Turks and Caicos. Both times it convinced me that my first choice for anchoring was a poor choice.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Paul L

... I don't buy the logic that its blowing 40+kts so you can't move. It takes a fair amount of engine and good coordination with the bow, but it can be done....

First, I said only if the situation was extremely serious. A little rash, a bent rail, and stuff I can probably cure with fenders (which they did) is not very serious.



And if ANYTHING goes wrong you are on the beach, along with who ever you hit. There may be ropes in the water from people's efforts. You may snag an anchor line with your undercarriage. One the the other anchors may be over yours; the only safe way is probably to leave it (remember those 5- to 6-foot waves?). It is the middle of the night and some of the boats may not be lit (you know this is true). Also remember that the boats were described as varying in size; the smaller ones would really struggle.



Yup, no doubt I could move, but whether that is the safe action requires a lot more information. I've been in many harbors where leaving at night in a storm is a very poor option.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

May have worked for him, Don, but in many jurisdictions, that constitutes assault and could result in legal action. And in some other jurisdictions, the other chap just might pull out a firearm and have a preemptive go at the Samurai Warrion threatening him!

Jim

my friend was a lawyer!
he may have yelled a few legal threats too, not sure.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by thinwater

........
Yup, no doubt I could move, but whether that is the safe action requires a lot more information. I've been in many harbors where leaving at night in a storm is a very poor option.

Definitely agree. Much prefer to set well before sunset and stay the night. Minor damage with cooperative neighbors can be dealt with. When things go bad and it is really crowded I have a bias to get out of the way before things go really down hill. A couple of years ago I was in a deep bay that was supper crowded over a holiday weekend. Directly on my stern a large power boat anchored, then his two buddies side tied to each side. Wind came up about 1am, by sunlight there was at least 30 boats driving around having dragged in the dark, with 3 or 4 more aground. We ended up pulling anchor just before sunrise. Should have left earlier.

[Franziska]

Regarding the specific case of the OP, on which location did this happen?

[Don C L]

If you really cannot get out of a bad anchorage then I'd say the only remedy then is to get another big anchor set upwind as far as possible in the V and wait for the inevitable boat coming down on you and then you may be able to dodge it by hauling in on one anchor or the other, and you have something of an insurance policy against the other boats' anchor(s) dragging through snagging anchors and rodes as they go. But once you have 2 anchors down off the bow it may be considerably harder to get out if you have to, unless you are willing and able to drop the anchors and come back for them later. After a bad night years ago when all the boats, including mine, dragged, I always have an exit plan in the back of my head now.

[Zai]

Originally Posted by Don C L

If you really cannot get out of a bad anchorage then I'd say the only remedy then is to get another big anchor set upwind as far as possible in the V and wait for the inevitable boat coming down on you and then you may be able to dodge it by hauling in on one anchor or the other, and you have something of an insurance policy against the other boats' anchor(s) dragging through snagging anchors and rodes as they go. But once you have 2 anchors down off the bow it may be considerably harder to get out if you have to, unless you are willing and able to drop the anchors and come back for them later. After a bad night years ago when all the boats, including mine, dragged, I always have an exit plan in the back of my head now.

Also as you dodge the dragging boat, he will almost certainly take your anchor with him on the side he drags by.
Maybe he would hook up on it and you would save him too!


Really difficult situation. Myself I like to take a tour over to the boats anchored near me and ask how much rode they have out and if they were in the anchorage before me ask how were the conditions last night...etc.
This gives me a little heads up on if I want to move or not, before anything funky starts to happen.