Re rig in Dyneema

[UNCIVILIZED]

s/v Jedi, PM with a way to contact you. I've a time sensitive rigging tip that might be a big help to you, & your wallet.

[Mark424]

Originally Posted by Robertkwfl

Just had my cat re-rigged with dyneema and couldn't be happier.

Weight savings was immediately apparent: the mast bent noticeably on the crane coming down, but not at all going back up.

Do you know the actual weight savings? what size boat/rig? I keep hearing that dyneema is 1/5th the weight, but when you add in fittings, etc don't know if we are talking about saving 25 lbs (ok, but not exciting), or 250 lbs. much more interesting.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by Mark424

Do you know the actual weight savings? what size boat/rig? I keep hearing that dyneema is 1/5th the weight, but when you add in fittings, etc don't know if we are talking about saving 25 lbs (ok, but not exciting), or 250 lbs. much more interesting.

It depends on the rigging you already have. Dyneema terminators are generally about half the weight of the stainless ones they replace because they are made from aluminium. Then the rope is about 1/7 the weight of the wire it replaces. So a good rule of thumb is you will end up around 1/5 the weight.

How much this equates to in pounds just depends on your rig. Just some quick numbers... a 40' sloop with a 50' mast has roughly 105' of wire on the cap shrouds, another 115' for the fore and aft stay and lets call is 60' for the lowers. So that's a total of 280' (85.34m) of 10mm dyform wire. At 54kg/100m that's 46.1kg (101.6 lbs). So just the weight savings in wire would be about 87.1lbs with a remaining weight of 14.5. The end fittings will add a bit more in weight savings, but not massively so, maybe another 10lbs total.

So on some very rough made up numbers you are talking about shaving 97.1lbs from your rig. With an average height above B of around 27' this works out to gaining roughly 2,621ft*lbs of RM. Or if your keel was 6' below B this is the same as adding a 440lb bulb to the bottom of the keel.

[out42]

Had synthetic shrouds on two trimarans and two 42 foot Cats. Forestay apart, I would never go back to steel. Good to look at, nice to work with, settles once the first year has gone and weighs nothing. Make sure you get the correct type as has already been said.

[UNCIVILIZED]

The thing is it's not just a simple question of weight lost, or even weight lost aloft. Extra mass up high acts to make your rig & sails bounce around more, which detaches the flow from them more frequently, & more forcefully. So that they're a lot less efficient in terms of both making power, & transferring it to the entire structure of the yacht in order to drive it forward.

Besides, saving 25lb aloft is Huge. Most racers would kill for that, spend thousands of dollars for such a gain, or both. Heck, custom race boats doen't even have much (if any) paint inside of the hulls, as paint weighs something...

[s/v Jedi]

I will have to look at that again. Last time I went for stainless steel because I could re-use my Norseman fittings (!!) and for my capshrouds and lowers I had to go up in diameter a lot to deal with creep. It turned me off then.

My main capshrouds are 1/2" wire (now 12mm Dyform) pre-tensioned at 20% of breaking strength. I forgot the diameter of Dynex Dux I needed but it was a big deal. Now that I probably have to buy new fittings, things may change

[Boulter]

This is of high interest for me. I have 5/32" SS wire on my Tanzer 22 and it looks like 5mm Dyneema will be the correct size to replace it with. Now the Dyneema at Defender is $US2.11 IIRC vs about $1 for SS, but I don't have to buy end fittings and pay someone to swage them on. I intend to use eye loops over SS thimbles, so all DIY. I intend to continue using turnbuckles to tension the rigging.

Looks to me on first pass estimate to be less expensive than SS without even trying to source a better price than Defender. About 150 feet for 5 stays (leaving forestay in SS) plus 10 SS thimbles get me to about $350US, say $600Can with shipping and brokerage.

Boulter

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Boulter

This is of high interest for me. I have 5/32" SS wire on my Tanzer 22 and it looks like 5mm Dyneema will be the correct size to replace it with. Now the Dyneema at Defender is $US2.11 IIRC vs about $1 for SS, but I don't have to buy end fittings and pay someone to swage them on. I intend to use eye loops over SS thimbles, so all DIY. I intend to continue using turnbuckles to tension the rigging.

Looks to me on first pass estimate to be less expensive than SS without even trying to source a better price than Defender. About 150 feet for 5 stays (leaving forestay in SS) plus 10 SS thimbles get me to about $350US, say $600Can with shipping and brokerage.

Boulter

Which Dyneema are you looking at?

[barnakiel]

The light rigging I have seen was actually sheathed, not bare wire. So burning thru should not happen.

But why use an ultramodern rigging on a classic heavy hull?

I would stay with SS wire in anything but a racer / ultra modern cruiser. Keep it simple and repairable.

b.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

The light rigging I have seen was actually sheathed, not bare wire. So burning thru should not happen.

But why use an ultramodern rigging on a classic heavy hull?

I would stay with SS wire in anything but a racer / ultra modern cruiser. Keep it simple and repairable.

b.

Remember that rope has been the classic rigging on classic ships. Like Brion Toss once said: wire rigging has been a 150 year anomaly :-)

Dyneema is simple and reliable. I believe hi tech racers use different rigging.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Remember that rope has been the classic rigging on classic ships. Like Brion Toss once said: wire rigging has been a 150 year anomaly :-)

Dyneema is simple and reliable. I believe hi tech racers use different rigging.

High tech racers are now using what amounts to carbon rod rigging, it's even stronger, lower stretch, and has no functional lifespan limit. At least until your bowguy whacks it with a winch handle and I think explodes.


Fwiw I assume Boulter is looking at the NER STS 5mm, which is a good choice, its a DirecTV competitor with Dynex Dux just less expensive.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

The light rigging I have seen was actually sheathed, not bare wire. So burning thru should not happen.

But why use an ultramodern rigging on a classic heavy hull?

I would stay with SS wire in anything but a racer / ultra modern cruiser. Keep it simple and repairable.

b.

Would you also use cotton sails? They are classic as well. But even most traditional designs are using at least Dacron, and it's becoming pretty common to see a traditional design with 3di sails. Because they simply work better.

If anything I think traditional designs get more utility out of light weight rigging than more modern designs do not less. Since they tend to be more tender, and the extra RM pays off earlier. They also have shallower keels so the gain in ballast equivilant is much higher.

It's may be hard to wrap your head around at first, but dyneema rigging really does result in sailing noticably flatter faster, and with less pitching. It is not a subtle difference.

[TheThunderbird]

I disagree on the assumption that weight loss makes such a difference.

In proportion, a carbon mast would give a far better improvement.

For a cruiser, dependability in terms of chafing, tenacity, adjustability and constant performance... outweighs any marginal weight advantage.

Of course, anyone is free to think differently :-)


PS along 20meters line, 0.7%stretch is 14cm. Happy turning....:-)

[seabreez]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Where did you hear that? New one for me...

Jim

Here is a article that appeared in gCaptain...

Little wear after six years and good for many more
The visual inspection concluded that the ropes, which are protected with a sleeve where they come into contact with the fairlead, were still in good condition. They showed little wear even after six years of operations. Further inspection showed that the ropes should be capable of providing 10 years of service life at their current rate of wear. And with an end-to-end switch, they could last even longer.
“After more than six years spent operating in a variety of extreme conditions, the rope continues to perform reliably with minimal maintenance,” says Gu Fang, First Mate of the Cosjade Lake. “We have not needed to make any replacements and the ropes show only a little wear. In fact, they have helped us to reduce the personnel, time and resources needed to moor a vessel of more than 298, 000 tonnes, allowing the crew to focus on other operational needs on the vessel.”

“We not only underwrite the performance and reliability of each and every Dyneema® fiber, we also provide expertise through our global application development and technical service team” Kedar Sule, Marketing Manager Maritime at DSM Dyneema

16 VLCC vessels with mooring ropes with Dyneema®, and plans for more
It’s a convincing case for Cosco Dalian, as Zhao Jin Wen, the company’s Deputy General Manager notes: “The performance, quality and reliability of the mooring ropes with Dyneema® have clearly benefitted our operations, as well as the health and safety of our employees and the environment. Since 2008, when we had the first successful trial, we have gone on to equip 16 of our VLCCs with ropes made with Dyneema® and we are looking to equip more of our vessels in the near future.”
Kedar Sule, Marketing Manager Maritime at DSM Dyneema, says: “At DSM Dyneema, we offer our rope-making partners a wide range of support. This means we not only underwrite the performance and reliability of each and every Dyneema® fiber, we also provide expertise through our global application development and technical service team. The result, as in the case of the Cosjade Lake, is outstanding performance over the long-term.
The case for choosing mooring ropes with Dyneema®

• 7 times lighter: A mooring rope made with Dyneema® is seven times lighter than a steel-wire rope of the same strength and diameter.
• 210 minutes faster: Ropes made with Dyneema® cut VLCC docking times from around 240 minutes with mooring ropes made with steel-wire rope, to approximately 30 minutes. This reduces the personnel, time and resources needed to moor a vessel.
• Better for health and safety: Mooring ropes made with Dyneema® are safer and easier for crews to handle. No hand, wrist or back injuries have been reported from mooring operations. Ropes with Dyneema® eliminate the risk of steel-wire backlash, and the accompanying possibility of serious injury or even death.

Less maintenance: Ropes made with Dyneema® require minimal maintenance compared with their steel wire rope equivalents – and no greasing or lubricating whatsoever. This also means that ropes made with Dyneema® do not fall under US rules that specify the use of more environmentally friendly (and more expensive) grease for lubricating steel wire rope.
About Cosco Dalian
Dalian Ocean Shipping Company (COSCO DALIAN) is a wholly owned subsidiary of China Ocean Shipping Company (Cosco Group). The company was formed on January 1, 1978, and it is the only company within the group specializing in liquid bulk transportation. Cosco Dalian currently owns and operates 40 vessels including tankers, LPG and chemical ships, with a total deadweight of more than five million tonnes. The total ?eet is than that of any other similar enterprise in China. The company’s seven own-ownership VLCCs and four chartered VLCCs serve as the company’s ?agship vessels to establish a corporate brand together. COSCO DALIAN has been continuously developing international customers and strengthening strategic cooperation with internationally renowned owners, leading it to expand its business to more than 300 ports in 100 countries in regions throughout the world.

[Symphony]

I love my Dyneema halyards and will re-rig standing the same way when the time comes