In-mast vs in-boom furling

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Medved

So the only thing that does not make sense is how come expensive ocean sailing yachts like Discovery, Amel, Oyster use in-mast. At those prices I am sure they can afford to provide an in-boom, and yet that is not what they choose to do. This is what is not connecting for me.

Nor me either, that is what an meant by Social pressure, people expect to see in mast, if there is in mast there is no explanation, it’s what was expected, in boom for whatever reason just didn’t become the thing to have, unless of course there is some weak link that I’m unaware of.
Many, many things are driven on social pressure in Society, especially the luxury items, in fact I’d say that most buy whatever item based on it, everything from size and style of house, which automobile, phone etc, they buy whatever item most often based on its “the” socially preferred item to have.
Of course they all stand around and expound the socially accepted advantages of having a four wheel drive SUV in the city for example, because it’s the expected vehicle for a successful person to have, in the city.
I know I have now gotten many mad at me for disparaging SUV’s cause most have them, but I contend they have them because socially it’s the vehicle to have, not because they have any need of four wheel drive and or the capability to carry a dozen passengers.
Many, many times there are better items out there, but since they don’t have that brand name, they don’t sell as well, while people line up to buy Starbucks Coffee, Apple watches, Yeti coolers etc based solely on social pressures.
Boats are not immune.

Plus I’d strongly suspect that if your an OEM premium boat manufacturer that what you pay for in mast is a fraction of what it’s sold to Joe Public for, due I’d guess to number of units manufactured. The in boom people can’t do that, plus assumption is that the in mast systems are manufactured by the mast manufacturer and the in boom systems aren’t?
Meaning that the mast manufacturers are much bigger than the in boom guys, as ALL sailboats have masts, the mast manufacturers may subsidize the cost to OEM to get the units out there.
That is very common in manufacturing.

All of this is just a guess of course

[BobHorn]

Our first boat came with the Dutchman system. To me it seemed just about worthless. Replaced both main and mizzen with Mackpacks and cruised for six years, loved them. Owned a boat with in boom furling for a short period of time and getting the boom angle correct was a royal PITA. And it took an almost infinite number of turns on the furling drum to get it furled, never again. Have chartered in mast furling and liked the convenience but for cruising I will go with Mack/Stackpack every time.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Nor me either, that is what an meant by Social pressure, people expect to see in mast, if there is in mast there is no explanation, it’s what was expected, in boom for whatever reason just didn’t become the thing to have, unless of course there is some weak link that I’m unaware of.
Many, many things are driven on social pressure in Society, especially the luxury items, in fact I’d say that most buy whatever item based on it, everything from size and style of house, which automobile, phone etc, they buy whatever item most often based on its “the” socially preferred item to have.
Of course they all stand around and expound the socially accepted advantages of having a four wheel drive SUV in the city for example, because it’s the expected vehicle for a successful person to have, in the city.
I know I have now gotten many mad at me for disparaging SUV’s cause most have them, but I contend they have them because socially it’s the vehicle to have, not because they have any need of four wheel drive and or the capability to carry a dozen passengers.
Many, many times there are better items out there, but since they don’t have that brand name, they don’t sell as well, while people line up to buy Starbucks Coffee, Apple watches, Yeti coolers etc based solely on social pressures.
Boats are not immune

Or in the case of mainsails they are evolutional improvement? think hanked on jibs vs furling jib......would you go back to a hanked on?.....stuff evolves.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Nor me either, that is what an meant by Social pressure, people expect to see in mast, if there is in mast there is no explanation, it’s what was expected, in boom for whatever reason just didn’t become the thing to have, unless of course there is some weak link that I’m unaware of.
Many, many things are driven on social pressure in Society, especially the luxury items, in fact I’d say that most buy whatever item based on it, everything from size and style of house, which automobile, phone etc, they buy whatever item most often based on its “the” socially preferred item to have.
Of course they all stand around and expound the socially accepted advantages of having a four wheel drive SUV in the city for example, because it’s the expected vehicle for a successful person to have, in the city.
I know I have now gotten many mad at me for disparaging SUV’s cause most have them, but I contend they have them because socially it’s the vehicle to have, not because they have any need of four wheel drive and or the capability to carry a dozen passengers.
Many, many times there are better items out there, but since they don’t have that brand name, they don’t sell as well, while people line up to buy Starbucks Coffee, Apple watches, Yeti coolers etc based solely on social pressures.
Boats are not immune

What a bunch of nonsense.

Please read post #12, post #21 and post #29. Watch the video, then try to do the same on your boat with boom furling in 18 seconds. If you go onto youtube, you’ll find my other video demonstrating how I deploy the mainsail on our 53ft boat in the same 18 seconds.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Bottom line:

In mast furling - poor sail shape. Anyone claiming it never got stuck should add “yet” to their comment.

In boom furling - proper sail shape and virtually problem free. With an electric winch, it’s the epitome of sail handling systems. Not as popular because it is more expensive.

This isn't correct at all.


In-mast furling does not produce "poor sail shape"; it produces lack of roach, which is not the same thing. In-mast furling mains are usually cut a little flatter which means even less power in light wind, but this is then better in stronger conditions and upwind. With in-mast furling with a laminate sail and good rig you have very great control over the shape, and when reefed more control than with a conventional main, because the foot of an in-mast furling main is always free. Vertical battens and a straight leech are also possible, and improve the sail shape further.



In-boom furling -- why "proper" sail shape? You can have horizontal battens and roach, and that is more powerful in light wind, but in-boom furling means you have no outhaul at all, so no control over shape of the foot or of the sail in the horizontal plane at all. Whether that's a big problem or not, I don't know -- don't have experience with the system -- but I personally would feel lost without an outhaul.


I don't think in-boom furling is more expensive than in-mast furling, so I doubt that expense is the reason for lack of popularity. I'm sure it's a very good system, but it has its own drawbacks like all other systems. Here I guess besides the lack of outhaul, you have issues with the very heavy boom and the difficulty of keeping it at the precise right angle in any kind of a seaway, or downwind.



You pays your money and makes your choices . . . to each his own!




Here incidentally is a glowing review of the LeisureFurl system by Tom Cunliffe, who has it on his present boat:


https://www.forespar.com/pdf/Forespa...liffe-0315.pdf

[daletournier]

There's 3 guys here that have extensive experience cruising with inmast furlers and have previously owned normal slab reefing boats. All 3 present real world experiences.

Out of the ones here that are anti inmast, have any of you owned a boat with inmast or had extensive experience with one.....not a friend chartered a boat with one once BUT actual real life ,done the miles type experience?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Or in the case of mainsails they are evolutional improvement? think hanked on jibs vs furling jib......would you go back to a hanked on?.....stuff evolves.

I don’t know, boom furling isn’t new by any means, which boat manufacturer sells boats equipped with them?

I don’t understand the comments on getting the boom angle right is a pain.
It’s a set once and forget it thing, and it’s dead easy to do. You know the boom angle is correct when it aligns perfectly with the battens, if the sail is walking forward when being furled the tail end of the boom needs to come up a little, if it walks aft, then lower it a little.
If I, a non Sailor can figure it out, it must not be hard.

My system has a nitrogen gas pressurized Vang. In order to use a boom brake and I’d assume a preventer if it pulls down on the boom, you need a topping lift so that this downward pressure doesn’t collapse the Vang, or I guess you could run a solid Vang?

Now you give up being able to control sail shape with the Vang, and this is a disadvantage.


One thing that is curious, and that’s I’ve not seen a Cat with either system, why? It’s not due to cost I’m certain of that.

[Medved]

Originally Posted by BobHorn

Our first boat came with the Dutchman system. To me it seemed just about worthless. Replaced both main and mizzen with Mackpacks and cruised for six years, loved them. Owned a boat with in boom furling for a short period of time and getting the boom angle correct was a royal PITA. And it took an almost infinite number of turns on the furling drum to get it furled, never again. Have chartered in mast furling and liked the convenience but for cruising I will go with Mack/Stackpack every time.

This could explain why in-boom is not as popular. If you have to play with the boom angle in order to furl correctly, that would be a major disadvantage in comparing to in-mast. Thank you for your insight.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I don’t know, boom furling isn’t new by any means, which boat manufacturer sells boats equipped with them?

I don’t understand the comments on getting the boom angle right is a pain.
It’s a set once and forget it thing, and it’s dead easy to do. You know the boom angle is correct when it aligns perfectly with the battens, if the sail is walking forward when being furled the tail end of the boom needs or come up a little, if it walks aft, the lower it a little.

My system has a nitrogen gas pressurized Vang. In order to use a boom brake and I’d assume a preventer if it pulls down on the boom, you need a topping lift so that this downward pressure doesn’t collapse the Vang, or I guess you could run a solid Vang?

Now you give up being able to control sail shape with the Vang, and this is a disadvantage.


One thing that is curious, and that’s I’ve not seen a Cat with either system, why? It’s not due to cost I’m certain of that.

I have zero experience with in boom therefore my opinion is worth not much.

I'm a curious fellow and ask other cruisers many questions , I always ask inboom furler guys what they think of the system. An answer I commonly get is the need to turn into the wind and get things right. Besides that most are reasonably happy, met two that were not. Met one that inmast and now as in boom and wants to go back to inmast.

Once again I personally do not know if in boom is any good.

[LoudMusic]

On our 43' catamaran we currently have a stack pack. We both hate it.

• The stack pack is ugly.
• The lazy jacks are ugly.
• The reefing lines are a pain to manage.
• Raising the sail is a bitch because the batons snag the lazy jacks.
• Reefing still requires going forward because the cam cleats are on the boom.
• The main sheet is rigged poorly because the reefing lines are in the way.
• There's no room for a rigid vang.
• Lazy jacks bang the mast and hum.
  

We've been considering a boom furling main which will resolve SO MANY PROBLEMS for us. It's just difficult coming to terms with spending the cost of a new car on something we have that functions albeit poorly.

Any recommendations or places we can experience them first hand before buying would be much appreciated.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Medved

So the only thing that does not make sense is how come expensive ocean sailing yachts like Discovery, Amel, Oyster use in-mast. At those prices I am sure they can afford to provide an in-boom, and yet that is not what they choose to do. This is what is not connecting for me.

Because, in-boom furling sucks when compared to in-mast furling. And slab/stack pack reefing really sucks when compared to both in-boom and in-mast furling systems.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by daletournier

There's 3 guys here that have extensive experience cruising with inmast furlers and have previously owned normal slab reefing boats. All 3 present real world experiences.

Out of the ones here that are anti inmast, have any of you owned a boat with inmast or had extensive experience with one.....not a friend chartered a boat with one once BUT actual real life ,done the miles type experience?

Those that hate in-mast furling are without any exception I know about people who merely hate from their armchairs, or have had a bad charter or friend's boat experience. The system couldn't be that bad if nearly all high end cruising boats from Northern Europe can't even be bought without in-mast furling. I guess Amel has never made a boat without in-mast furling; same with Hallberg Rassy at least in the last 20 years.


It's easy to hate these systems from your armchair. Note that even such a great sailor as Tom Cunliffe hated in-boom furling, until he bought a boat which had it already installed and sailed a few thousand miles with it. Now he loves it. https://www.forespar.com/pdf/Forespa...liffe-0315.pdf. Based on this, I'm guessing that my own slight prejudices against in-boom furling (which I expressed above) are probably wrong.



That experience is quite typical -- people who once own a boat with in-mast furling rarely go back, and that should tell you something.




Tom Cunliffe wrote this about his experience:


"Years back, I sailed a yacht with in-boom reefing. It was a disaster. Later that season, another came my way and she wasn't impressive either. . . . I concluded the whole idea was for the birds. I believe I even said so in print. A bad mistake on the basis of a couple of experiences. . . .Three years and several thousand miles on, I wouldn't change it for the world."

So, do not judge furling systems on the basis of arm-chair speculation, or a couple of experiences.

[B23iL23]

Because to make it work really well, you have to pay much more for a high end system. One on the boat I'm sailing is more expensive than many very decent boats but it works really really well.


let me add that to keep the leech tight along the boom you need a friction control on the outer end. This also has to more fore and aft along the boom as the leech moves (as you furl). I am a huge fan of in boom furling because of the sail shape plus when you do reef down the weight it also lowered (as against in mast where the weight is always much higher up)

Originally Posted by Medved

This could explain why in-boom is not as popular. If you have to play with the boom angle in order to furl correctly, that would be a major disadvantage in comparing to in-mast. Thank you for your insight.

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

One thing that is curious, and that’s I’ve not seen a Cat with either system, why? It’s not due to cost I’m certain of that.

A Maine Cat 41 was sold last year with a boom furler. I think I've seen both systems on other cats but don't recall the specifics.

[Wavehiker]

I have in-boom furling and would miss it if I didn’t have it. I single hand a lot for daysails and it is very reliable and easy to use. The boom angle is not a PITA. First time out see what angle aligns batten with boom and mark boom Vang and/or halyard for topping lift. There is also some margin for error. I have done 900nm offshore trips and found reefing to go smoothly, not as fast as in-mast but really what’s the difference between 18 seconds and 90 seconds? You do not have to be head to wind to reef but the pressure on the main has to be eased. There are disadvantages to everything,
you choose what works best for you.