Watermaker basic questions

[Falbala60]

Originally Posted by Falbala60

1 - type of pump : I found there are 2 types of high pressure pumps : a) rotating with multiple pistons on a crank shaft, b) piston intensifiers ...
Which one is the most reliable type ? Energy needs ?

2 - noise : which type give the most silent watermaker. I saw a youtube video of a piston intensifiers pump VERY NOISY, with a constant klunk-klunk, I don't want to ear that for 1-2 hours, are all system of this type the same.

Are the rotating type more silent ? I do prefer a little constant HUM than a KLUNK-KLUNK during one hour.

Many thanks to all for your inputs, but not much comments of the questions 1 and 2.

For sure there are actual users that can give good advises for each technology, cost, maintenance, noise, etc.

From my readings I would be more in favor of Echotec pump type, but ready to be discouraged.

[Falbala60]

Thank you Third Day,
Question :
can you explain what are the advantages to use the "rotary pump" rather than the "intensifier" type ?

The cat I order will be delivered in France and the manufacturer offer an other technology... intensifier and very very VERY COSTLY !!!

What is the way to have your CruiseRO system (approx 60 l/h) shipped and installed in France ?
Do you have a distributor there... I know this will increase the price (commission, etc) but hope your still will be 1/2 the price of the proposed one.

I appreciate your videos,

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by Falbala60

Thank you Third Day,
Question :
can you explain what are the advantages to use the "rotary pump" rather than the "intensifier" type ?

The cat I order will be delivered in France and the manufacturer offer an other technology... intensifier and very very VERY COSTLY !!!

What is the way to have your CruiseRO system (approx 60 l/h) shipped and installed in France ?
Do you have a distributor there... I know this will increase the price (commission, etc) but hope your still will be 1/2 the price of the proposed one.

I appreciate your videos,

I just gave a water maker presentation at the Seven Seas Cruising Association GAM in Melbourne, Florida covering this topic. The difference between the two style pump is really a question of AC vs DC water makers.

First DC:
DC water makers have as their primary design criteria as being low energy draw from your battery bank, powered by Wind and solar. The energy recovery "intensifier" pumps "re-use or recycle" the 800psi generated to drive the sea water through the RO Membrane. Energy recovery pumps are great, they are just a LOT more expensive because you are paying for that low power draw engineering and proprietary technology. If your boat will not have an AC generator then to me it is a obvious decision to go with an energy recovery intensifier pump and accept the higher cost and lower fresh water per hour out put.

For AC:
AC water makers use the standard age old technology of a piston rotary pump.
Nothing fancy, $250 for a wet end rebuild any cruiser could do themselves, but is an Energy HOG Pump. So you are trading energy efficiency for lower cost and higher fresh water output. If your boat is going to have generator, then in my opinion it's an easy choice to go the AC route for your water maker and use the piston pump. You can run your generator 2-3 times a week and make a LOT of water per hour while charging batteries and other AC loads. If your generator was to break while out cruising or while motoring, you can run the energy hog pump through an inverter with the alternator putting out power. So you won't be left without a water maker.

I do NOT believe there is a Wrong Choice or a Right Choice when it comes to the pump type (Energy Intensifier vs Rotary Piston) it's just a question of how you set up your boat and what type of Hp pump works best for your needs and desires. For example, I would never want to sell an AC water maker to a boat without a generator (Diesel or Honda 2000) because sure it will cost a LOT less money but how would you power it on a daily basis?

Here is a link to download a copy of our SM30 (33gallon per hour/125L per hour):
www.cruiserowaterandpower.com/uploads/sm30.pdf
The 50Hz 208-240v motor unit sells for $5350 and DHL shipping will vary a bit based on your location, but will be about $695. Rather than sell through dealers that tack on their margin, our business model is to sell directly to the clients.

The majority of our clients do the installations themselves and we set-up our manual and Installation Videos for the Do It Yourself Installer, but in general it takes a boatyard or yacht manufacturer 2-4 days to do an installation.

If you have time for a few more videos, here is a link to our Installation planning video playlist
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...hByNY30vRR1uFs


Cheers

[2big2small]

I have this watermaker and always use it on 12V:
DessalatorÂ* l Â*Developement of unique systems for the desalination of sea waterÂ* l Â*AC & DC DUO WatermakersÂ*

It is a power hog at 50A on 12V but I have a 1,240W solar array so it’s fine. The pump is rather silent, to answer the OP.

Having watched Rich’s video, I now can see how you would make water in a brackish environment. The problem is, I have no control AFAIK over the pressure/throughput ratio. I just dial the knob and when it reaches a preset (as far as I can make out) pressure it automatically starts filling the tank.

It came with the boat but I had a chat with the original vendor/installer of the unit who stressed that I should only use it with pure seawater and avoid anything with a lesser salt content. (So anybody reading this make sure your particular unit can be used in the way Rich describes before blowing it up .)

My question is now: does anybody know how I might modify my unit so I could use it in fresh and brackish water? At the least I’ll have to add a throughput gauge, and then find a way to force it to start filling the tanks at any pressure I fancy but that might be more of a job than I might want to take on circumventing the electronics and all that.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by 2big2small

I have this watermaker and always use it on 12V:
DessalatorÂ* l Â*Developement of unique systems for the desalination of sea waterÂ* l Â*AC & DC DUO WatermakersÂ*

It is a power hog at 50A on 12V but I have a 1,240W solar array so it’s fine. The pump is rather silent, to answer the OP.

Having watched Rich’s video, I now can see how you would make water in a brackish environment. The problem is, I have no control AFAIK over the pressure/throughput ratio. I just dial the knob and when it reaches a preset (as far as I can make out) pressure it automatically starts filling the tank.

It came with the boat but I had a chat with the original vendor/installer of the unit who stressed that I should only use it with pure seawater and avoid anything with a lesser salt content. (So anybody reading this make sure your particular unit can be used in the way Rich describes before blowing it up .)

My question is now: does anybody know how I might modify my unit so I could use it in fresh and brackish water? At the least I’ll have to add a throughput gauge, and then find a way to force it to start filling the tanks at any pressure I fancy but that might be more of a job than I might want to take on circumventing the electronics and all that.

I just took a quick look at your link... the regulating valve knob on the control panel is a needle valve and adjusts pressure from that.

Matt

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by 2big2small

I have this watermaker and always use it on 12V:
DessalatorÂ* l Â*Developement of unique systems for the desalination of sea waterÂ* l Â*AC & DC DUO WatermakersÂ*

It is a power hog at 50A on 12V but I have a 1,240W solar array so it’s fine. The pump is rather silent, to answer the OP.

Having watched Rich’s video, I now can see how you would make water in a brackish environment. The problem is, I have no control AFAIK over the pressure/throughput ratio. I just dial the knob and when it reaches a preset (as far as I can make out) pressure it automatically starts filling the tank.

It came with the boat but I had a chat with the original vendor/installer of the unit who stressed that I should only use it with pure seawater and avoid anything with a lesser salt content. (So anybody reading this make sure your particular unit can be used in the way Rich describes before blowing it up .)

My question is now: does anybody know how I might modify my unit so I could use it in fresh and brackish water? At the least I’ll have to add a throughput gauge, and then find a way to force it to start filling the tanks at any pressure I fancy but that might be more of a job than I might want to take on circumventing the electronics and all that.

Unless I’m mistaken you have the same watermaker a friend with an Amel has. Anyway I believe you do have both a pressure gauge and a flow meter, and a way to adjust pressure, just the pressure gauge isn’t marked with numbers, but you don’t need that if I understand the principle.
Just start out with low pressure and slowly raise it until your output matches its rating and stop. Just don’t allow it to make more water than it’s supposed to and you’ll be OK.
I believe your motor pulleys have sprag clutches and that they will fail, so maybe carry a spare or a solid pulley or another way to deal with the failure if it happens.

However I think your watermaker has some automatic protection features and maybe due to them it may not allow operation at lower than spec pressure? Pretty sure it will not allow overpressure operation but don’t know about low pressure.

[2big2small]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Unless I’m mistaken you have the same watermaker a friend with an Amel has. Anyway I believe you do have both a pressure gauge and a flow meter, and a way to adjust pressure, just the pressure gauge isn’t marked with numbers, but you don’t need that if I understand the principle.
Just start out with low pressure and slowly raise it until your output matches its rating and stop. Just don’t allow it to make more water than it’s supposed to and you’ll be OK.
I believe your motor pulleys have sprag clutches and that they will fail, so maybe carry a spare or a solid pulley or another way to deal with the failure if it happens.

However I think your watermaker has some automatic protection features and maybe due to them it may not allow operation at lower than spec pressure? Pretty sure it will not allow overpressure operation but don’t know about low pressure.

They do factory install this brand at Amel, but your friend must have a different model because I don’t have a flow meter, just the numberless pressure gauge.

I can adjust pressure but I can’t decide when to stop. It automatically starts filling the tank as soon as I reach a certain pressure, hence my predicament. Before I get to that pressure nothing happens.

Basically I have an on-off switch and a rotary knob for pressure adjustment and that’s it.

[Tellie]

Originally Posted by 2big2small

They do factory install this brand at Amel, but your friend must have a different model because I don’t have a flow meter, just the numberless pressure gauge.

I can adjust pressure but I can’t decide when to stop. It automatically starts filling the tank as soon as I reach a certain pressure, hence my predicament. Before I get to that pressure nothing happens.

Basically I have an on-off switch and a rotary knob for pressure adjustment and that’s it.

Measure your product out put and turn your needle valve until you reach your systems rated hourly output number.
This is where I run into problems with customers who have systems that still use antiquated devices like a needle valve to adjust pressures and output. They inevitably cant resist the urge to over pressurize just a bit to get more output then wonder why they have premature membrane failures and higher than normal PPM readings. Under loading can be just as problematic. If you have a decent grasp on how RO systems operate then you should be fine. But alas, this is sorta moot because I have yet to meet a sailor who didn't know it all.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by 2big2small

They do factory install this brand at Amel, but your friend must have a different model because I don’t have a flow meter, just the numberless pressure gauge.

I can adjust pressure but I can’t decide when to stop. It automatically starts filling the tank as soon as I reach a certain pressure, hence my predicament. Before I get to that pressure nothing happens.

Basically I have an on-off switch and a rotary knob for pressure adjustment and that’s it.

OK, the link you provided showed a flow meter on the panel in their picture, perhaps it’s only new models?
If I were you, I’d contact Rich and buy a flow meter, it’s dead stupid simple to install as 100% of the product water flows through it, only install thing that I can think of that is important is to keep it vertical, I assume laying horizontal it may not work correctly.
It’s not a small thing though, but easy to read.
I’m no watermaker expert, I am learning as much as I can and haven’t even fully completed my install yet, but I believe accurately knowing your output is important as it can clue you into impending problems before they become critical, like a drop in production I think may be an indicator that your membranes may need cleaning, but without knowing production rate, how can you know if it’s slowly decreasing?
In other words I think a good accurate easy to read flow meter may be a good thing to have even if you never plan on making water in brackish water.
However I’m just learning theory, so of course I could be very wrong too.

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by Tellie

Measure your product out put and turn your needle valve until you reach your systems rated hourly output number.
This is where I run into problems with customers who have systems that still use antiquated devices like a needle valve to adjust pressures and output. They inevitably cant resist the urge to over pressurize just a bit to get more output then wonder why they have premature membrane failures and higher than normal PPM readings. Under loading can be just as problematic. If you have a decent grasp on how RO systems operate then you should be fine. But alas, this is sorta moot because I have yet to meet a sailor who didn't know it all.

Ding Ding ding....
We must say it 20 times in our manual that the system operating pressure is 800PSI when in sea water, but weekly someone will call and casually say they run the system at 875 or 900 or 950 and why is their pressure releif valve popping.....ahhhhhh. Sometimes I need a drink!

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Pete7

I have to ask, why do you need a watermaker in the Chesapeake area? does America not have clean fresh water from taps?

Pete

A ligit question. Often water is easily accessible but sometimes not of best quality. OK for showering & cleaning but maybe not for drinking.

But lugging around large amounts of bottled water for drinking is a chore.


What we did:
The large main watertank is used only for shore water. OK for shower, dishes, cleaning, etc

For drinking water we have a small Katadyn watermaker with separate tank, pump and a 3way faucet. Runs just a few hours per day for drinking water supply.
If we need to stretch the main tank we can run the watermaker a few hours longer and add a few liters to the main tank, but that doesn't make sense most times.
Of course we have to go somewhere for shore water from time to time, but we can easily do 3-4 weeks between refills.

The Katadyn is cheap, reliable, often available on eBay and user maintainable. The separate drinking water system is easily cleanable (vs the inaccessible main tanks)



This is -for us and our needs- the ideal setup. Of course other needs will give a completely different setup.