This one's for Peggy, chemical holding tank treaments

[BobHorn]

We are in FL getting ready to bring our new, to us, boat back to a marina we checked out some time ago. It will remain anonymous. On the way to FL we stopped there to reserve a slip and found out that the development went bankrupt. There are no rest rooms, showers, pump out or fuel dock. But there are live-a-boards. I asked one of them what they do about holding tanks. He told me that in his case, once a week he adds a 'chemical' to the tank and then after some period of time he pumps it overboard. He said all the live-a-boards do the same. Never gave me the actual name of the 'chemical'. Is there such a treatment that allows pumping the tank overboard in a marina?
Thanksd,
Bob

[sailorboy1]

I'm not Peggy but: The answer is, no there is no approved chemical that allows this far as the rules go. But of course there are chemicals that will disinfect the tank and it's contents.

[john61ct]

People will rationalize anything.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by john61ct

People will rationalize anything.

If done correctly, what is the difference between this and an electro-scan?
It’s my understanding that is nothing more than a little chlorine and a soak period?

I’m not abdicating either, the Electro-scan is legal, treat and dump isn’t

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

If done correctly, what is the difference between this and an electro-scan?
It’s my understanding that is nothing more than a little chlorine and a soak period? ...

It's not.
How the electroscan works -
Each time the toilet is flushed an equal amount of previously treated waste is discharged.
The flushing action of the toilet moves the waste through the electro scan and out.
The first chamber macerates to reduce particle size.
The second chamber mixes to ensure uniform treatment of contents.
The tank is always full and with proper ocean salinity, 3.5% salt, the electricity applied to the electrodes creates a strong bactericide* to kill viruses and bacteria.
When first activated both motors come on and run for the entire cycle.
The user then has 35 seconds to flush toilet.
After 35 seconds the electrode is energized to begin the treatment process which lasts for approximately 2 minutes.

* https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC154785/

* http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf

[Woodland Hills]

I am guessing that this is also what those who moor at private docks do for full holding tanks. If so, no wonder so many canals are befouled these days.....

[peghall]

Is there such a treatment that allows pumping the tank overboard in a marina?

No....not in a marina or anywhere else inside the "3 mile limit." Reason: there's no way to prove that the contents meet federal standards for overboard discharge. And those federal standards not only require that bacteria count be reduced to a max of 1000/100 ml, they also require that the discharge be macerated to "no visible solids"...iow, completely liquified. Waste doesn't stay in any macerating toilet or overboard discharge macerator long enough to do that.

Type I and II treatment devices must be USGC certified in prototype that the discharge meets or exceeds federal standards and every production unit must be exactly like it. Any changes, the "new" device has to be re-submitted to the CG for certification. And a randomly selected production unit has to be resubmitted to the CG for certification every 5 years.

Gord almost got the way a LectraSan/ElectroScan works right. It can only handle 1-1.5 gal at a time. Flush goes into the first chamber...the mixer and macerator run for two minutes...then the treatment cycle kicks in (electrodes create hypochlorous acid by charging the ions in salt water with electrical current) and runs for 30 seconds. The next flush pushes the contents into the second chamber where it's mixed, macerated and treated a second time. The third flush pushes the second into the 2nd chamber which pushes the first one overboard.

No way that anything added to a tank can turn the contents into anything close to that. The best any overboard discharge pump can do is puree solids and TP.

And btw...although federal law only requires that the bacteria count be reduced to a max of 1000/100 ml the LectraSan/ElectroScan and PuraSan reduces it to <10/100 ml. And though BOD isn't regulated, the BOD from them is the equivalent of 4 leaves falling off a tree into the water.

--Peggie

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Woodland Hills

I am guessing that this is also what those who moor at private docks do for full holding tanks. If so, no wonder so many canals are befouled these days.....

Usually what “Fouls” waterways now is nitrogen acts as a fertilizer.
A huge amount of it comes from lawns and golf courses etc.
Used to be the phosphates in laundry detergent were a large source, but I believe phosphates are no longer in laundry detergent.

I don’t know how which nitrogen leeches into the waterways from septic tanks and illegal discharging, but I’d bet that it’s not nearly as much as what comes from fertilizing lawns, as a guess.

I’ve been a member of the North Fl Springs alliance, a group of cave divers that are heavily involved with water quality as we see it first hand cave diving.
https://northfloridaspringsalliance.org/index.html

In North Fl, a HUGE amount of the nitrogen etc canes from agricultural usage, there were fields North of Tallahassee that were used to spray animal wastes out of irrigation systems as a way to get rid of it, that was ruining the aquifer there.
That has been discontinued, but I don’t know what is done with the waste now?

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by peghall

Is there such a treatment that allows pumping the tank overboard in a marina?

No....not in a marina or anywhere else inside the "3 mile limit." Reason: there's no way to prove that the contents meet federal standards for overboard discharge. And those federal standards not only require that bacteria count be reduced to a max of 1000/100 ml, they also require that the discharge be macerated to "no visible solids"...iow, completely liquified. Waste doesn't stay in any macerating toilet or overboard discharge macerator long enough to do that.

Type I and II treatment devices must be USGC certified in prototype that the discharge meets or exceeds federal standards and every production unit must be exactly like it. Any changes, the "new" device has to be re-submitted to the CG for certification. And a randomly selected production unit has to be resubmitted to the CG for certification every 5 years.

Gord almost got the way a LectraSan/ElectroScan works right. It can only handle 1-1.5 gal at a time. Flush goes into the first chamber...the mixer and macerator run for two minutes...then the treatment cycle kicks in (electrodes create hypochlorous acid by charging the ions in salt water with electrical current) and runs for 30 seconds. The next flush pushes the contents into the second chamber where it's mixed, macerated and treated a second time. The third flush pushes the second into the 2nd chamber which pushes the first one overboard.

No way that anything added to a tank can turn the contents into anything close to that. The best any overboard discharge pump can do is puree solids and TP.

And btw...although federal law only requires that the bacteria count be reduced to a max of 1000/100 ml the LectraSan/ElectroScan and PuraSan reduces it to <10/100 ml. And though BOD isn't regulated, the BOD from them is the equivalent of 4 leaves falling off a tree into the water.

--Peggie

Peggie, you almost got it right if you are speaking of an ElectroScan.



First, the macerators run for the entire two minutes, but at about the thirty second part of the run, the electrodes are energized and run for the duration of the time. If the overall current falls below 14 amps to the electronic pack, the time will be extended.
After two minutes (as long as the current to the electronics is kept above 14 amps) the unit shuts off.

The overall average current for an ElectroScan's two minute run amounts to one amp/hour (average current of 30 amps for two minutes) per flush.

[peghall]

First, the macerators run for the entire two minutes, but at about the thirty second part of the run, the electrodes are energized and run for the duration of the time.

I went to the ES owners manual to check, and you're right..the treatment cycle kicks in AFTER 30 seconds, not just for the last 30 seconds. So neither Gord nor I got it 100% right. Thanks for the correction.


--Peggie

[kapnkarl]

Aren't there fed/state/county/locally sponsored pumpout boat services available in the area this marina is in as well as all across Florida? I googled and it looks like At least Monroe county has them. We live & boat in NJ and have pumpout boats that travel around to popular raftup areas as well as make regular trips into marinas, even those who have pumpout facilities. The folks piloting the boats are paid by the municipality they work for and usually get a $5 "thank you" from the captains of the boats they pump. So, it makes it worth their while and is a win win win..(pilot, captain, town). I would check with ur local government officials or google.

[kapnkarl]

Actually, i forgot a win...the marine environment

[jmschmidt]

The US federal standard do not apply to the rest of the world. The only international standard applies to the dumping of plastic. Some places I have chartered, the BVI, Belize, and French Polynesia apparently don't give a sh.. about what you dump or where you dump it.

In Australia, not so, in their briefing they give you a little chart that defines the no-pupu dumping zones.

[SV Bacchus]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

In North Fl, a HUGE amount of the nitrogen etc canes from agricultural usage, there were fields North of Tallahassee that were used to spray animal wastes out of irrigation systems as a way to get rid of it, that was ruining the aquifer there.
That has been discontinued, but I don’t know what is done with the waste now?

I know many, many years ago in central FL there was an old man next to us that owned an orange grove. He used to let septic tank pump trucks patrol his groves spreading their recently acquired "loads" as fertilizer. We couldn't open our windows for 3 to 4 days after a fresh spread of liquid fertilizer.

I've been living more urban since then and no longer sure but I hope that process has been stopped. Knowing people I shudder to think the fly by night guys still do some dumping in large fields or groves under the cover of darkness..

[jmschmidt]

Sorry but there are billions of tons of whale, fish and turtle poop discharged into the oceans of the world everyday. Since the total tonnage of aquatic life exceeds the total tonnage of human life by a factor of many, what are we to do, put diapers on all of the fishes in the sea? Get real people.