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SV THIRD DAY · 24-02-2017, 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

Watermaker was pickled with propylene glycol (Pure Oceans -50 deg F) in June of last year, and will be that way for about 1-1/2 years before recomissioned on our next cruise. I'm hoping that is not too long to be pickled. Other option is to restart it this summer, and then pickle it again. Tellie, any thoughts on what would be best?

The "official by the book" word on pickling is that it shouldn't sit longer than a year. But when using PG (Propylene Glycol) at 50% strength I have seen membranes last 2-3 and even 5yrs. It really does matter on how through and well the water maker pickled to start with.

Sodium Metabisulfite on the other hand loses it's effectiveness at the 6mounth to a year mark. So I would NOT recommend letting a system that was pickled with MetaBi sit for more than a year. Could you get lucky and survive longer...sure...the wheel of fortune spins better for some than others.

So the question I always get is this:
If PG is a better pickling reagent than Metabi, then why isn't PG the standard every day recommended pickling reagent. The answer boils down to convenience. How do you carry enough gallon jugs of PG on your boat for a multi year cruise? It's very easy to carry a 5lb container of Metabi that will last years.

DANGER NOTE:
Don't use a pickling reagent in your water maker that is not approved by your manufacturer. He's not trying to hose you and lock you into his more expensive blend of pickling reagent, he is trying to protect you from a costly mistake! Your Hp Pump is the most expansive part of your water maker...don't damage it with the wrong pickling reagent just to save a few bucks or because your dock neighbor said it will be ok!

Pizzazz · 24-02-2017, 09:40

There are a couple of considerations in selecting a water maker. One way to think about it is the relative efficiency of various water makers and power sources. Basically, a Spectra unit with a Clark pump needs 1.2 amps per gallon of fresh water, a DC water maker needs 3-4 amps (the larger the more efficient it is) and an AC water maker needs 7-8 amps @ 12Vper gallon. The AC watermakers are less efficient due to lower efficiency of single phase AC motors and the losses in inverting/charging.

The second decision is on size and typically the larger the better but note a couple of caveats. A larger watermaker (say 30 gph @ 90 amps DC) would be difficult to power without an engine or a genset as discussed in the thread above. It also takes more space and makes quite a lot of noise which is not an issue if running the engine or genset but note, that it can get quite involved: you take out the genset, fuel it, make the connections, run the genset, start and adjust the water maker, then pickle at the end. Quite a few steps. A smaller watermaker run more often is simpler and faster.

On my 31' boat I have two watermakers, a Powersurvivor 35 and a home made 7 gph @ 30 amps. The Powersurvivor has only an ON/OFF switch and one valve (testing or tank). It is very quiet and can be left running at night while sleeping. It needs 4 amps/gallon, the same as the home made one. I end up using the Powersurvivor most of the time, just flip the switch when my 35 gallon tank is 1/3 full and switch it off 10 hours later. I do not think about it, don't even hear it most of the time. This is for 1-2 people though. When there are more people on board, I have to go through the effort with the bigger one. I guess if I were using the bigger one more often, I would not need to pickle it everytime which will reduce the effort but the point of the story is that watermakers like to be run every couple of days, so choose the capacity that makes sense for you. If you expect guests once a month may be it is not worth it to size the water maker for them.

Lastly, for these people with large solar and lithium-based batteries, do you really think it is worth it? It can get quite expensive, so you might as well just get a Spectra. I can't think of any large loads that would justify so much power: watermaker and AC are the only ones I can think of. You could add heating and cooking but there are much better solutions for that on a boat... unless you want to make your boat like a house.

SV THIRD DAY · 24-02-2017, 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

Lastly, for these people with large solar and lithium-based batteries, do you really think it is worth it? It can get quite expensive, so you might as well just get a Spectra. I can't think of any large loads that would justify so much power: watermaker and AC are the only ones I can think of. You could add heating and cooking but there are much better solutions for that on a boat... unless you want to make your boat like a house.

Don't confuse the LiFePO4 battery issue with water makers.
None of the cruisers I know with LiFePO4 batteries purchased them so they could run a larger output water maker. It's the other way around, meaning once they have LiFePO4 batteries all types of options open up to them, not just high output water makers. Cruisers go for LiFePO4 batteries because they are a much better battery than lead acid. Having LiFePO4 batteries isn't about what larger loads you can run from them...but about how much better they are than lead. A common phrase is "Life Changing" from about everyone I know with them, including myself.

Now, have you seen many of these cruising Cats and Boats today...damn right they want to make them like a floating house...you just nailed it!!

No power worries...no water conservation...bingo.
That's the argument for not just LiFePO4 batteries but also for a high capacity water maker. Now some sailing and cruising purists will mock and poke fun and call them fake cruisers for not bragging about how little power and water they can use as a badge of honor, but there are different water maker choices for a reason. And it highlights why what works great for one person is a disaster decision for another.

Remember why this thread was started in the first place. A cruiser bought a low output 12v DC water maker and in a season of cruising the Bahamas hated it, sold it and bought a 20GPH AC high output unit and wanted to express where they went wrong in their thinking. They express a lament I hear all the time...so it was valuable for them to share it.

Now CALM DOWN before people get all bent out of shape as if their manhood has just been questioned! This isn't an indictment or an attack on those that love their 12v DC low output water makers. If they work for you GREAT no one is calling you wrong. It's just my cruising approach and that of some others that when it comes to water makers, yes...size matters...

sailjumanji · 24-02-2017, 11:44

Thanks for the feedback, Rich.

Paul L · 24-02-2017, 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

There are a couple of considerations in selecting a water maker. One way to think about it is the relative efficiency of various water makers and power sources. Basically, a Spectra unit with a Clark pump needs 1.2 amps per gallon of fresh water, a DC water maker needs 3-4 amps (the larger the more efficient it is) and an AC water maker needs 7-8 amps @ 12Vper gallon. The AC watermakers are less efficient due to lower efficiency of single phase AC motors and the losses in inverting/charging.
......

The sales pitch for the high output, low efficiency watermakers used to be you are going to need and run a genset anyway, so efficiency isn't important. Now it seems to include you've got Lith batteries, so they can handle the loads.
The AC watermakers are still least efficient on a watts used basis. They work fine for some, but so do the far more efficient DC systems like the Spectras, which are available at both low and medium outputs.

**a64pilot** · 24-02-2017, 12:42

OK, I don't want to "dis" Rich, among other things I'm running his fridge and will soon buy his watermaker.
However if your wanting to run a watermaker off of Solar, nothing will make more water per unit of electricity than a Spectra.
Where a high output AC watermaker comes into its own I believe is when your going to run a generator anyway and therefore don't care about efficiencies, you just want a lot of water, fast, and within what most cruisers can afford to pay, nothing makes water faster than an AC watermaker.
There are other reasons of course, I want standard parts, not proprietary and there is a limit to what I can afford.

This from a guy that does not have a watermaker but understands the principles and has done some decent studying on the subject. Be this Summer before I get mine, it's among the last thing I will install, cause being a weekend warrior, I don't need it yet.

44'cruisingcat · 24-02-2017, 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

There are a couple of considerations in selecting a water maker. One way to think about it is the relative efficiency of various water makers and power sources. Basically, a Spectra unit with a Clark pump needs 1.2 amps per gallon of fresh water, a DC water maker needs 3-4 amps (the larger the more efficient it is) and an AC water maker needs 7-8 amps @ 12Vper gallon.

Our Parker Racor Little wonder 12 volt watermaker uses around 2 amp/hours per (US) gallon.

Not quite as efficient as a Spectra, but much, much cheaper. Very reliable, titanium pump, etc. Spend a small portion of the money saved on extra solar panels (if you have the space) and you're well in front financially.

daletournier · 24-02-2017, 15:07

Here's the difference between a low volume producing watermaker and a high volume one (ive had both)......this morning I pointed the shower head into the drain until hot water come out :-)......wouldn't dare do this on my last boat, and yes I'm soft and getting softer:-)

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

SV THIRD DAY · 24-02-2017, 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by a64pilot

.
If your wanting to run a watermaker off of Solar, nothing will make more water per unit of electricity than a Spectra.
Where a high output AC watermaker comes into its own I believe is when your going to run a generator anyway and therefore don't care about efficiencies, you just want a lot of water, fast, and within what most cruisers can afford to pay, nothing makes water faster than an AC watermaker.
There are other reasons of course, I want standard parts, not proprietary and there is a limit to what I can afford..

You nailed it Amigo.

Attempting to compare a 120v AC water maker to a 12v DC water maker in terms of efficiency is bogus...apples to oranges...Ford F250 to a Toyota Prius....Hudson Force 50 to a 50ft J boat. Sure you can do it for fun...but it makes no sense because they are designed for different people with different priorities/needs/wants.

The 12v DC is made with efficiency in mind with an energy recovery pump, trading away higher volume for efficiency/complexity and there is a $$ cost associated for that efficiency.

The 120v AC doesn't care about efficiency and focus on high output, lower cost and simplicity but there is a energy cost for that high output and simplicity.

When a 30GPH water maker for $5250 is compared to a 19GPH water maker for $14,000 you have to ask yourself WHY the price difference because we are using he same Dow RO Membrane. The deeper you go into that question you understand the differences. It's not just price, it's design engineering.

This is why (just like your boat type and design) there is no such thing as the "perfect water maker" because it's a personal choice. Do you care about efficiency more than cost? Do you want more water over efficiency? I walked a few folks down to the Spectra booth last week during the Miami Show when after talking to the cruisers in planning they wanted efficiency over high output and cost. Tellie and Ray have likewise sent folks down to my booth when the client wanted high output from their diesel genset.

It's not a knock on one design approach or the other to say which one works best for you and your situation. What's bad would be to have no choice or options....

**Tellie** · 24-02-2017, 16:13

It's simply the Goldilocks approach. Give me ten identical boats with ten identical powering capabilities and there will be ten different watermakers to fit the needs and desires of the owners and the capabilities of the boat. There are still a few that think the Katadyn 40E is a sufficient watermaker for their boat. Then there are owners that would throw me off their boat if I suggested anything other than a fully automated system making 42-125gallons per hour on 24Volts. There are also people that spend thousands on a single freshwater head and others that feel a five gallon bucket is all you really need. Then there are the hundreds of variable differences in between. There is no one solution for all. You should really spend some time with several watermaker representatives to find what system best fits you. A sure fire way to make a mistake is to listen to your buddy down the dock whose only ever had one watermaker. He may not mind that cantankerous old generator screaming away in the anchorage, while another only wants the quiet power of solar. Talk to us, sure this is a business for us, but most of us have been where you've been and truely have your best interest at heart.

SV THIRD DAY · 24-02-2017, 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tellie

Talk to us, sure this is a business for us, but most of us have been where you've been and truely have your best interest at heart.

That's key because at the end of the day the LAST thing I want or need (and this is true for Tellie was well) is to "talk someone into" our water maker and then have them be unhappy with it out cruising. One unhappy customer will negate 100 happy blokes all around the anchorage and internet. Neither of us need a sale bad enough to push anyone into it, which frankly is why people like us have a good reputations...well at least Tellie anyway...me I'm a Croc wearing Bozo...ha ha ha

JeffBurnes · 07-03-2017, 13:23

We are having an ONAN 11.5 kVa Genset installed and have narrowed our choice of water makers down to 4 - any advise would be greatly appreciated as now I can not make up my mind:

1. SPECTRA Newport 1000. 153 LTR/ hour - $16,195
2. SEA RECOVERY Aqua Whisperer PRO 142. 142 LTR/ hour - $13,458
3. FCI AQUAMISER A616 600 GPD. 95 LTR/ hour - $11,850

We are a family of 6 that will be living aboard our Lagoon 440 cat and will have substantial water requirements.

We will be cruising the Bahamas and Caribbean for 1 to 2 years.

My main concerns are reliability and serviceability (warranty cover) and access to parts.

Rickthesailor · 07-03-2017, 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffBurnes

We are having an ONAN 11.5 kVa Genset installed and have narrowed our choice of water makers down to 4 - any advise would be greatly appreciated as now I can not make up my mind:

1. SPECTRA Newport 1000. 153 LTR/ hour - $16,195
2. SEA RECOVERY Aqua Whisperer PRO 142. 142 LTR/ hour - $13,458
3. FCI AQUAMISER A616 600 GPD. 95 LTR/ hour - $11,850

We are a family of 6 that will be living aboard our Lagoon 440 cat and will have substantial water requirements.

We will be cruising the Bahamas and Caribbean for 1 to 2 years.

My main concerns are reliability and serviceability (warranty cover) and access to parts.

HI,

Have you looked at a Cruise RO? It is at least half the price of these and you can get a 160L/hr version... We have a 160L/hr version on a Lagoon 450 with 700 litre water tanks and it works great...

Regards, Rick

downunder · 07-03-2017, 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rickthesailor

HI,

Have you looked at a Cruise RO? It is at least half the price of these and you can get a 160L/hr version... We have a 160L/hr version on a Lagoon 450 with 700 litre water tanks and it works great...

Regards, Rick

Value and reliability.