Nature's Head (?) - Seriously . . .

[Tellie]

Going on two years with a Natures Head. I have used everything from 5-gallon buckets with toilet seats attached, porta potties to full electronic crappers and fixed practically all of them at one time or another. One of theeee best additions to my current boat has been the Natures Head. It's not for the prissy yacht clubbers backsides who pay other peple to fix their messes. But if you've sailed for any length of time on your own boat you've probably fixed and cleaned up messes from the usual fare of marine heads in less than fun seas. Most of the time the KISS rule is best. I have finally come to the realization that all other types of marine heads are nothing more than Rube Goldberg machines.

[Jim Cate]

For Peggy Hall:

From memory, the specifications for determining that an on-board treatment MSD is useable are couched in terms of numbers of e-coli/mL. If the number is low enough, then discharging is ok.

If my memory is correct, then why can't one discharge urine, whose e-coli content is zero?

I have wondered about this for a long time, and hope that you might clear it up for me!

Thanks

Jim

[cburger]

Originally Posted by Madwand

I never realized it was legal to throw all your garbage overboard 3 miles out. Paper bags and plastic bags full of dirt and all, that's great. I guess. Is that why your composter is legal in the NDZ of the Keys? Throwing a bag of "dirt" overboard is not considered dumping? I would think if they see you chucking anything overboard, you'd have some splaining to do...

Might ask British Petroleum that question.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by rebel heart

IFor #2, I like to use wet wipes because I find them to do a much better job than paper. I wouldn't clean my kid's ass with toilet paper, I'd use wet wipes. I see no reason to be less hygenic for my own rear. Put them (and any feminine products or otherwise) into a lunch paper bag, crumple the top, toss overboard, wash your hands, all done.

I fail to see how ths is legal.

[Mr. Fixit]

I have used an air head 3 years now, all my sailing has been costal and i empty it approx. every 2 months. I add a small cup of peat every day and it is not a unplesant mess.(i add more before emptying) I have a solar vent for air flow and if i have a few days of rain i turn on the factory supplied fan--looks like a computer fan-- low draw--I would not go back to a holding tank--the space and weight saved has allowed me to switch to all chain rode. Is it perfect-- heck no-- but not having a holding tank and associated plumbing, in my opinion makes it a no brainer. (under my circumstances)--i do not know how it would work with 3 or 4 aboard, as this is not my circumstances

[Madwand]

Originally Posted by cburger

Might ask British Petroleum that question.

They didn't do it on purpose.

[Blue Crab]

Originally Posted by Sluce

One holding tank overflow was enough for me.

I had one from a full holding tank wherein the contents were frozen over a
Toronto winter but not mentioned by the dreaded PO. It didn't all go in the bilge but you get the idea. I always pee in a separate jug anyway so I'm halfway there already. And now I get something to aim for?

Thanks for the in-actual-use reports, mates! I'm sold. Think I may wait til Hurricane Irene goes by. Hope I still have a pot to pee in! We'll see.

[Noname]

Sounds like kitty litter for humanoids, eh??? Hey, thats not a bad idea!

[sarafina]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

For Peggy Hall:

From memory, the specifications for determining that an on-board treatment MSD is useable are couched in terms of numbers of e-coli/mL. If the number is low enough, then discharging is ok.

If my memory is correct, then why can't one discharge urine, whose e-coli content is zero?

I have wondered about this for a long time, and hope that you might clear it up for me!

Thanks

Jim

Jim you are correct about the ecoli count... and I have really researched the topic. It's like a loop hole. The regs say that measurable to some tiny degree (1,000 per 100 milliliters) 'ecoli can not be present in discharge'. Nowhere does it ever say urine, as a sterile product with out ecoli present, is exempt from the discharge regs, but the regs also clearly deal with sewage in a traditional way with no concept of the separating system. I bet that you could make a legal case for supporting the discharge of urine while holding and processing the solid waste, but I don't want to have it with some coastie with his attitude up...

After a year of messing around I ordered the eco privy kit in May... but it's back ordered *sigh*. We will be installing in the classic boxed in scenario over a 5 gallon bucket with a gallon urine collector plumbed in, which I will plan on pouring down the galley sink as needed, which is what I do now anyway... Problem solved.

ALL solid waste will be removed in 5 gallon containers and disposed of properly ashore for now, we are in the endless no discharge zone of the San Francisco Bay after all...

Currently the damp TP goes into the garbage can and the soiled goes into the wag bag for removal ashore. I expect that to stay the same; damp paper, which I find inoffensive, into a little can next to the head, and the soiled paper into the composting head along with the coir. The coir in bricks stores for AGES (as in I have had 2 blocks waiting for use for over a year and they are fine still) so my early worries that they would absorb ambient moisture and swell up in the lockers proved to be a non issue.

I will be using a second 5 gallon bucket for removal to shore and disposal so I won't be dealing with bags, which sounds not fun to me... just my luck I'd get a hole in one while in the back of the truck... I plan on only letting the bucket fill to a comfortable weight as well. I don't want any heavy loads up and down the dock ramp.

The solar fan/vent has been purchased for installation.

And it's 2 ply costco paper for me...

[rebel heart]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

I fail to see how ths is legal.

She was talking about a bucking storm, which implies you're at sea. You can throw paper products overboard in open water (legally I believe it's > 25-50 miles). Of all the trash floating around on the ocean you're never going to see a paper lunch bag with some other paper inside of it.

[nautical62]

I've installed and used both composting and traditional marine heads on my cruising boats.

Each has it's advantages and disadvantages and I feel which is best depends on what kind of cruising you will do as well as your own attitudes.

Composting heads cost more, so I think the question becomes: Are there increased advantages that justify this increased cost? I feel the advantages are that the waste in a composting system takes up less weight and space. In my mind this is an advantage if you are cruising a boat that must have a small holding tank and can not legally or ethically be discharged frequently.

For even a modest sized boat cruising in areas one can frequently discharge, I see no real advantage. For longer term cruising I think having to dispose of waste that isn't completely composted is something I'd rather not do. With weekend sailing or trailer sailing, it's easier to let the compost complete finish composing before having to deal with it.

I found TP composted fine. If you go the composting head route, bring a spare exhaust fan or two along. In my experience once that fails, the composting will be much, much slower and smellier.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

Thanks for clearing that up for me Peggy, so i would think then that one would be able to build a urinal into the head compartment that flows directly over the side well above the waterline ... ... Thoughts?
Steve

Although the various laws and regulations might not directly address this specific application, my guess is that any reasonable inspector/LEO would interpret this as a violation.
Perhaps not, though.

Originally Posted by sarafina

Jim you are correct about the ecoli count... and I have really researched the topic. It's like a loop hole. The regs say that measurable to some tiny degree (1,000 per 100 milliliters) 'ecoli can not be present in discharge'. Nowhere does it ever say urine, as a sterile product with out ecoli present, is exempt from the discharge regs, but the regs also clearly deal with sewage in a traditional way with no concept of the separating system. I bet that you could make a legal case for supporting the discharge of urine while holding and processing the solid waste, but I don't want to have it with some coastie with his attitude up...

So, what does one do if one has a UTI?

Normally, urine is sterile, usually free of bacteria, viruses, and fungi; but does contain fluids, salts, and waste products. An infection occurs when bacteria from the digestive tract cling to the opening of the urethra and begin to multiply. Most urinary tract infections arise from Escherichia coli (E. coli), which normally lives in the colon.

[sarafina]

Not that I have found inspectors to be, in general, reasonable. I believe you are correct Gord, and that it would be a loosing proposition trying to educate one about the actual risks of human waste disposal, rather than the lowest common denominator regulations that are in place and that assume no common sense and in fact expect no voluntary compliance from the public.

They would prolly just bust you with a fine and tell you to *fix it* even if it weren't really broke at all...

Better imo to just make it all simple and seamless for them. I considered the addition of a small hand pump, the one on our ancient groco head in fact, to the urine collector so that it could be easily emptied without having to remove it from the cabinet. And gave it up as a bad deal, when I imagined trying to have the conversation with the inspecting official.

"well you see Officer, urine is actually a sterile solution of around 95% water with a mix of mostly salts of various kinds making up the remaining 5%, so it isn't actually covered by the waste laws regarding marine discharge. Those regulation concern the volume by ml of ecoli bacteria in the discharge. Since the urine has no ecoli, it meets the safety standards for legal discharge."

Yeah, I can just SEE having that conversation successfully...

And when I have a UTI I take antibiotics, which again, renders my urine legal under the ecoli count standard. A really bad untreated uti would speculatively produce 100 parts per ml, or 10,000 per 100ml, ten times the regulations allow. But at that point you would be in so much pain I doubt you would be found in a boat within the 3 mile limit... because only being WAY off shore would keep me from pulling in to where the nearest walgreens with prescription refills and pick was avaliable...

[h20man]

Originally Posted by Madwand

<SNIP>



I never realized it was legal to throw all your garbage overboard 3 miles out. Paper bags and plastic bags full of dirt and all, that's great. I guess. Is that why your composter is legal in the NDZ of the Keys? Throwing a bag of "dirt" overboard is not considered dumping? I would think if they see you chucking anything overboard, you'd have some splaining to do...

My understanding, is that under MARPOL regulations, of which most countries are signatories DUMPING OF ANY PLASTICS IS NEVER ALLOWED.

[sarafina]

That's true, plastic waste dumping is verboten. Compostable bags, which were what was under discussion, are not plastic. Mostly corn starch.