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Old 19-09-2009, 02:28   #226
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Originally Posted by Dreaming Yachtsman View Post
I NEVER assume that a freighter of any size will give way to me. In fact, I always assume that they won't even see me and take avoiding action early enough to prevent any risk of collision, .....
You and osirissail are saying the same thing.... as is George, as is I, as is the Colregs.



Yes folks should read the damn thing ... its easy as its splattered all over the net. Each country has their own wording.
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Old 19-09-2009, 06:44   #227
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There more inaccurate statements concerning the rules in this thread than there are correct ones. If you are reading this thread to learn the Colregs, please instead go directly to the source.
Oh, that's a bit harsh. I don't think anyone would wade through this thread to learn the Colregs.

Quote:
I particularly agree with maneuvering early enough so that risk of collision never exists in the first place and therefore no need to implement the Rules for avoiding a collision.
There have been several posters now who have stated that the rules apply regardless of tonnage, yet they summarily disregard Rule 17. OK then, what is "early enough" in your opinion?
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Old 19-09-2009, 07:15   #228
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- - If Dreaming Yachtsman thinks this thread has gone on "Way too long" why is he still reading it? He also fails to make the bridge between the real world of private citizens sailing the oceans and the military. I would agree that it is appalling that so few sailors have ever seen COLREGS much less read and understood them. In the Military the ability to "force" people to learn "rules and regulations" is vastly different by light years, from getting voluntary civilian students in informal classes to remember "rules of the road." They are not even comparable. I also have taught "rules of the road" albeit for only 15 years, but to civilians whose only interest was learning to sail and get a certificate so they could bare-boat charter. Trying to get them or absorb information that they do not consider to be of any interest or "need to know" is most difficult. So instructors try to instill in them basic concepts and vastly simplified memory aids - witness the "Red Right Returning" memory aid for bouys and markers. In the most common situations (but not ALL situations) that suffices to keep them out of trouble.
- - What occurred before COLREGs was adopted is interesting from a historical viewpoint but is not relevant to current actual practices. There were reasons "major changes" were made in 1972 and other revisions since then.
- - Dreaming Yachtsman must have some difficulty with the word "slang" as a way of warning the reader that this is an approximation of the actual rules and NOT the actual written rules. Rather than getting all wrapped around the "language" of the rules - which is great for the "do or die" testing present in the military school environment - he should realize that getting the average citizen to grasp and understand the concepts and purpose of the COLREGS requires using memory aids and vastly simplified concepts. Trying to get them memorize the language in an environment where "Yes Sir! Aye Aye! Sir! does not exist is futile. Witness Phonics and the New Math in public schools.
- - Of course, there is no such thing as "rule of tonnage" - it is a slang approximation of the concepts of give-way and stand-on. As others have said plainly, in practice they just stay away from anything really bigger than their boats, and that is what the concept of the slang "rule of tonnage" describes. It is also known as the "800lb Gorilla rule."
- - There is real life and there is theoretical life that is argued in the court system. But staying alive to me is a more important concept than being "dead right." If you are actually out there on the oceans, islands, bays and rivers of the world you will see in real life that virtually none of COLREGS is adhered to or even known to exist. Witness the contributors to this thread and others who admit to never having read them, let alone remember what the actual rules say. They only have "heresay" about them and assume they must be the same as "landside" laws and rules they encounter on the highways and byways. That is a very dangerous (slang: hazardous to your health) situation.
- - We can discuss the actual wording of each rule, ad-nauseum, and "turn-off" or as is said in the educational arena - "lose them" from even retaining any of the basic concepts.
- - What I said is not misleading! It is as I stated a simplification or distillation of the relevant COLREGS applicable this thread's general topic of discussion - Why did Jessica have a collision and is she aware of the "rules of the road" that are designed to prevent collisions? Which all address the more basic question - Is Jessica old enough and experienced enough to safely undertake her quest?
- - More than half of all the civilian students I taught in sailing school had no interest in reading the COLREGS and expected me as the instructor to "spoon feed" them the "important" ones so they could pass the tests. If not, then they would take their money elsewhere. That is the reality of life in the private recreational boating world. Keep it plain and simple - K.I.S.S.
- - What Lodesman posted "Oh, that's a bit harsh. I don't think anyone would wade through this thread to learn the Colregs." is reality. If it is possible to only get a gross simplification understood about COLREGS then this thread has done something positive for the real world of cruising on private recreational vessels.
- - The last paragraph of my post #213 is very illuminating to me anyway, it explains why "out there" very few - if any - vessels adhere to or even know that COLREGS exist -> Their country never signed the convention.
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Old 19-09-2009, 07:51   #229
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Osiris, I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who once wrote I'm sorry I wrote such a long letter. I did not have the time to write a short one.
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Old 19-09-2009, 08:02   #230
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Christian Van H - You are correct. But when confronted with a direct personal assertion it is difficult to be brief. I am sure that both Dreaming Yachtsman and I - being "teachers" from two different environments - can get too worked up and passionate about our "subjects." For that on my part, I deeply apologize.
- - Many forums have failed and drifted into oblivion when discourses devolved into "I said, he said and he's an idiot" petty picky arguments. I would suggest that direct negative references to posters be avoided and "indirect" or "third person general" references mixed with a lot of tact and civility be used instead. "Pushing somebody's button" is not conducive to Forum longevity.
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Old 19-09-2009, 08:12   #231
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Old 19-09-2009, 08:20   #232
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So as not to be put Erika in the catagory of dead horse beater my name is Helga from Sweden and I'm borrowing Erika's log-in.

Quote:
The last paragraph of my post #213 is very illuminating to me anyway, it explains why "out there" very few - if any - vessels adhere to or even know that COLREGS exist -> Their country never signed the convention.
I think you hit the heart of why those who are making good points could also disagree on those same points.(ya still with me?)
There does seem to be a different attitude between vessels when offshore and when coastal. Furthermore, though I have not observed this myself, from the previous posts it seems in certain countries the rules are just not applied/enforced.

As far as jessica (dead horse alert!!)
She deserves a grand adventure, she is obviously a amazing girl who loves sailing. I just wish instead of her going alone her dad or an experienced captain would hop aboard and see her safely (as best as you can for the Roaring forties) around the world. When she sets off agian I will be cheering for her (she'll need all the postitive vibes/prayers she can get- just ask the people who have done this route) but I just wish she wouldn't do this alone, or better yet this route! (have I mentioned I don't like her route?)

Erika uh er I mean Helga from Sweden

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A gal loves a good heated debate of the colereg interpretation - you guys are too cool
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Old 19-09-2009, 08:27   #233
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Hey Helga!
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Old 19-09-2009, 09:18   #234
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For those of you who may be losing sleep because I haven't read COLREGS and might cast off, hunt you down and ram your vessel, let me try and put your mind at rest.



I did take a USCG safety class and passed the exam with a high score after being spoon fed the ROTR by one of osirissail's colleagues. This morning I did try to download my very own copy to read, but the link posted earlier will not load for me. Perhaps, given the dire situation of our government finances, they shut down their servers over the weekend. But thanks for the link, I will get a copy and read them.
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Old 19-09-2009, 13:49   #235
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Speakeasy,

I just tried to access the ROTR on line through the URL's in my browser history and through Google search. Neither path worked so something is apparently amiss with the USCG servers. Perhaps they were overloaded with people trying to download the Rules????
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Old 19-09-2009, 17:29   #236
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Use this one for USCG - Navigation Rules Online
It's good because it breaks down international and inland rules.
Not that many countries are not signatories now - and some of those who haven't signed (like the US) still have laws that give the Colregs force.
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Old 19-09-2009, 23:37   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
Oh, that's a bit harsh. I don't think anyone would wade through this thread to learn the Colregs.



There have been several posters now who have stated that the rules apply regardless of tonnage, yet they summarily disregard Rule 17. OK then, what is "early enough" in your opinion?

Rule 17 is for actions by a stand-on vessel within sight of one another when risk of collision already exists. I wrote:

"I particularly agree with maneuvering early enough so that risk of collision never exists in the first place and therefore no need to implement the Rules for avoiding a collision."

...so I wasn't disregarding Rule 17 at all.

The question that is much more difficult to answer is when does risk of collision exist according to Colregs? Rule 7 gives guidance, but not a black and white answer.

Regardless, my point was for folks to go to the source instead of relying on second-hand information...even my own!
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Old 19-09-2009, 23:59   #238
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You and osirissail are saying the same thing.... as is George, as is I, as is the Colregs.



Yes folks should read the damn thing ... its easy as its splattered all over the net. Each country has their own wording.
So..... who's this "George" guy?

Yeah, read it!

FRANK
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Old 20-09-2009, 00:16   #239
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Helga says George is MarkJ's alter ego. And I thought we already decided that it was all the sailboats fault just kidding just kidding shhhh look to the horizon and take a beep breath, all is well.
night night,
Erika
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Old 20-09-2009, 00:20   #240
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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
Use this one for USCG - Navigation Rules Online
It's good because it breaks down international and inland rules.
Not that many countries are not signatories now - and some of those who haven't signed (like the US) still have laws that give the Colregs force.
The COLREGS are right in the US CFR's as law. No signing necessary.
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