Mexico confiscated 380 yachts - MERGED THREADS

[Ocean Girl]

Good luck to you too cyndimarcus, hope it all clears up soon.

[doug mcfarland]

It is all cleared up. My advice is do not contact the Mexican authorities. They don't have a clue. Work with the marina who know who to contact.

[chall]

I thinking of just cruising in my backyard pool. Drop my Rocna in the shallow end with ample scope and watch discovery channel on the new 42' screen in the saloon.

To go cruising anywhere interesting and adventurous, would be just be way too interesting and adventurous.

[Group9]

Here is some good advice when cruising, and dealing with government officials, whether in the US or somewhere else.

"When they want apples, give them apples. When they want oranges, give them oranges."

All that means, is just give them whatever they want, even if you think it's stupid, or useless, or whatever, and move on. Don't get upset and don't get stressed. Believe me, its just another day in the job to them, and nothing personal, and if you will treat it this way, it won't get personal.

The whole point of cruising is for stress free fun and adventure. Why try and make it something else?

[svseachange]

Originally Posted by doug mcfarland

But as regards your assertion that in the U.S. they would react like this is a bit off. In the U.S. you have to clear customs to enter with your boat and if you did your paperwork is properly filled out. This would only happen if you did not clear customs and it would never be done as a sweep.

The US CBP and US local law enforcement officers is constantly "sweeping" foreign registered boats in US waters. The US is probably one of the most difficult places for foreigners to cruise. At this time in history the US (and my home country Australia) unfortunately suffers from a siege mentality.

[tropicalescape]

This is history repeating itself,and those that would like to know what comes next should read up on there history,for stateside folks start with the year 1915 and keep reading until you get to 1941..Siege mentality(?), hope my 1941 J-4 Cub Coupe dosent get "conscripted" again!

[bobofthenorth]

Originally Posted by doug mcfarland

But as regards your assertion that in the U.S. they would react like this is a bit off. In the U.S. you have to clear customs to enter with your boat and if you did your paperwork is properly filled out. This would only happen if you did not clear customs and it would never be done as a sweep.

Spoken like one who has never had to deal with US Customs and Border Insecurity. If I really am cleared into the US after I get done with Customs then why do they travel with the Coast Guard and demand to inspect all my papers even after I show them a clearance number?

Every country has its official quirks. Given a choice I'll take Mexican officialdom any day over US officialdom.

[doug mcfarland]

Perhaps I am mistaken. I have only cleared customs as a U.S. citizen. My point was that it is hard for me to imagine for instance going to the DMV and filing paperwork of any kind and after paying and leaving then 4 months later having them impound my vehicle because I didn't fill out the form right.

Again I love Mexico. My mother is Mexican (born in the U.S.). My father met my mother while attending University of the Americas in Puebla. I have been coming to Mexico since infancy. I have lived in Mexico for several years of my life in total. I absolutely plan on retiring in Mexico if at all possible.

So that was response to Shanedennis.

To Bob of the north. This will be my last post to cruiser forums. Too many people here are just rude and willing to jump down peoples throats at the slightest provocation. It is almost as bad as Reddit which is saying something. You know absolutely nothing about me and I have crossed the border too many times to remember the count. I was making an observation about the apparent difference between american bureaucracy and mexican. Not trying to slander Mexico as I thought I fairly clearly expressed. So some cranky expat makes assumptions about me because he dislikes the U.S. system. I am not fond of it at all either. I love the U.S. and Mexico not their political systems. If you are uncritical of the flaws in the Mexican system it will be like the U.S. soon enough. But obviously you can't be very critical or reasonable about anything because you make assumptions about people you couldn't possibly know anything about.

Peace,
Doug

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by doug mcfarland

This will be my last post to cruiser forums. Too many people here are just rude and willing to jump down peoples throats at the slightest provocation. It is almost as bad as Reddit which is saying something.
Doug

Hey Doug,
Don't let a few rude asses drive you away, there are too many nice people here with great informaiton just write it off. But you point of not wanting to return should serve as a good point.

You also have to remember that EVERYONE thinks they are experts on subjects they are writing about even if they have never cruised Mexico. They have a friend of a friend of a dock neighbor that did and now they are experts, and they also stayed at a Holiday Inn last night!

[sailorboy1]

If I understand this thread, the problem is that the Mexico gov't decided to get everyone's' paperwork corrected. Am I missing something? Isn't this true in any country and the fact that local officials may have messed something up doesn't change it once the bigger gov't decides to start checking?

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by doug mcfarland

Perhaps I am mistaken. I have only cleared customs as a U.S. citizen. My point was that it is hard for me to imagine for instance going to the DMV and filing paperwork of any kind and after paying and leaving then 4 months later having them impound my vehicle because I didn't fill out the form right.

Again I love Mexico. My mother is Mexican (born in the U.S.). My father met my mother while attending University of the Americas in Puebla. I have been coming to Mexico since infancy. I have lived in Mexico for several years of my life in total. I absolutely plan on retiring in Mexico if at all possible.

So that was response to Shanedennis.

To Bob of the north. This will be my last post to cruiser forums. Too many people here are just rude and willing to jump down peoples throats at the slightest provocation. It is almost as bad as Reddit which is saying something. You know absolutely nothing about me and I have crossed the border too many times to remember the count. I was making an observation about the apparent difference between american bureaucracy and mexican. Not trying to slander Mexico as I thought I fairly clearly expressed. So some cranky expat makes assumptions about me because he dislikes the U.S. system. I am not fond of it at all either. I love the U.S. and Mexico not their political systems. If you are uncritical of the flaws in the Mexican system it will be like the U.S. soon enough. But obviously you can't be very critical or reasonable about anything because you make assumptions about people you couldn't possibly know anything about.

Peace,
Doug

Hi Doug....I for one hope you don't leave the forum. It is a better place in having you as a contributor. Please read this latest thread. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ds-116630.html
It may help you to understand some of the going on's around here. The forum is a great source of information and sometimes even encouragement.

[svseachange]

Originally Posted by doug mcfarland

Again I love Mexico. My mother is Mexican (born in the U.S.).

Cool background.

Stay on board, Mate.

[Ocean Girl]

I second that Doug, or is it fourth or fifth . Someone with your background and experience is an asset here, hopefully we can reply in kind one day.
Cheers and fair winds.

[SvenG]

Got this from the Southbound list so I'll leave that credit in place.

The following was published in today's Letronic Latitude by Latitude 38's Editor Richard. Hopefully it will help calm down any rumors of boats being seized in Mexico



TIPs and Rumors About 'Seized' Boats

December 2, 2013 – The World of Paperwork in Mexico

One of the ways in which Mexico is culturally different from the United States is that for many years some laws seem to be enforced very loosely, if at all, then all of a sudden a government agency seems to go over the top with enforcement. That's what has happened recently with the Servicio de Administración Tributaria (Tax Administration Service) branch of the Mexican government. On November 26 members of its staff began checking the Temporary Import Permits of all the foreign boats in a total of 10 marinas.

In the case of marinas in San Carlos, Kirsten Grossman de Zaragoza, the general manager of Marina Seca, says 40 inspectors showed up. They were backed by 30 heavily armed guards from the Armada, apparently in case boat owners decided to resist. Similar scenes played out up and down coast. To show how determined the SAT was, Grossman reports they worked through the night until 6 a.m. — although they didn't set foot on any boats.

A Temporary Import Permit (TIP) allows foreigners to bring their boats in and out of Mexico as many times as they want without having to pay import duty. When we got ours for Profligate back in 1997, they were good for 20 years. More recently, they have been good for just 10 years. The cost is a very reasonable $50.

The easiest way to get a TIP is to apply online at Banco Nacional del Ejército Fuerza Aérea y Armada, S.N.C.. It takes about 14 days to get a TIP. Meanwhile, you can use your credit card receipt as proof that you are in the process of obtaining a TIP. "I applied for three TIPs online in the last few months," reports John 'Woody' Skoriak of Sausalito. "They were sent to me almost immediately by DHL. It was a much more efficient process than U.S. Coast Guard documentation."

The other way to get a TIP is at a port that has a Banjercito, which is a Mexican military bank. This would mean places such as Ensenada, La Paz and Puerto Vallarta, but not Cabo San Lucas. But doing it online is the easiest and least time consuming.

In the past, nobody seemed to care that much about TIPS. As long as your boat didn't stay in Mexico longer than the length of your tourist visa — 180 days — and as long as you didn't leave Mexico without your boat, you theoretically didn't need one. While most marinas asked for a copy of your TIP when you checked in, lots of them didn't follow through if you didn't have it on you when you first came into the office. Now all foreign boats need them, and all marinas are insisting on seeing them before allowing any boats in.

We talked to many people who had their boats checked by officials from SAT, and all went swimmingly. Those who didn't have their TIPS on file with the marina were given five days to have one on file with the marina office. For example, four days and 22 hours into the deadline, the Wanderer and Doña de Mallorca, traveling inland, knew nothing about it. We then, while riding a bus from Guadalajara back to La Cruz, got a call from Mike Danielson of PV Sails saying the marina office needed a copy of Profligate's TIP within the next 90 minutes. Fortunately, de Mallorca knew where the document was, and Danielson took it up to the Marina Riviera Nayarit office. Once that was done, we were good.

To our knowledge, no boats on the hook were checked for current TIPs.

For whatever reason, apparently a lot of foreign boats either didn't have a TIP or didn't have one on file with the marina — the latter, in theory, being "responsible" for your boat if you leave the country without your boat. Those not in compliance with the TIP law were/are subject to fines and even seizure, although we have yet to hear of any boats being fined or seized, and we certainly don't expect any boats to be seized.

A couple of days ago we received an email from a friend of John Hards of the Beneteau 36 Pelican, currently in a marina in Nuevo Vallarta, saying Hards reported that, as of November 29, "60 boats had been seized" by "rogue officials," and that "yellow tape had been used to secure the seized boats." According to the email, "[Hards'] new TIP, validated by the military and Banjercito, had been declared invalid by the rogues." His new TIP, it was said, didn't show up on SAT's computer so, according to this letter, his boat had been 'seized', with yellow tape put around it, and Hards was not allowed to stay onboard. The friend was shocked because Hards had been cruising Mexico for 16 years, was laid back and well-known by locals, was familiar with the customs, and never had had a bad word to say about Mexico. The email ended with "have had no reply and no radio contact" with Hards, mildly implying that he might be in a wretched Mexican prison, likely never to be heard from again.

The term "rogue" is incendiary, of course, as it suggests out-of-control government officials imperiously abusing foreigners. While there may be some truth to this in cases of DWG — 'driving while gringo' — just before Christmas when officers need to buy presents for their kids, it hasn't been our experience with boats in Mexico. And we've had a boat in Mexico almost every winter for three decades now.

Fortunately, and not surprisingly to us, Hards is not in a Mexican prison. The SAT officials aren't "rogue." His boat wasn't "seized" in any common understanding of the term, or even wrapped in yellow tape. Furthermore, Hards will not have to make the long trip to Guadalajara to clear things up because the Port Captain in Nuevo Vallarta will take care of it. According to Hards' update email, the problem was that the marina Hards' boat was in didn't have his boat's TIP on file.

What is the chance of a boat being confiscated in Mexico over a TIP violation? We believe nil. There was a minor stink a number of years ago when, as we recall, the owners of about four foreign boats in Mexico were not only found to not have TIPs, but inexplicably refused to get them for their boats. As we recall, after government officials all but pleaded with these folks to come in compliance with the law, the boats — all of them old and beat up — were indeed seized. But trust us, the Mexican government wants two things: 1) Marine tourists in Mexico to be happy; 2) Marine tourists to respect and comply with Mexican law. Fortunately, it's easy to accomplish both.

- latitude / richard

[Bash]

Originally Posted by northwestsailor

Glad I decided against Mexico this year. Until things get cleared up probably good idea to stay in the higher latitudes where officials are more level headed.

Well, this is Mexico's ultimate problem. They pull one of these bonehead moves every few years, ultimately backing off once it's been proved beyond a doubt that they're shooting themselves in the foot. At that point, they've frightened away a significant percentage of their tourism base.

Joe Blow heads down to Baja every year for several years during spring break with sea kayaks strapped to the roof of his van. While trying to cross the border during Year Four, he is told that he can't bring his yaks south without a Temporary Import Permit since his boats are longer than 4.5 meters. He heads back to San Diego to try getting the permit, and the authorities tell him that they don't issue TIPs for sea kayaks, only for motorboats and sailboats over 4.5 meters. Joe Blow suddenly decides to kayak British Columbia in the future, and Mexico loses once again.

A few years back word went out that everyone cruising Mexico was going to need an AIS transponder. The cruising community basically said, "We're outta here," and the marina operators organized. Once they convinced the authorities that this was bad for business, word went out that this was only meant for commercial boats. The proposed regulation went away pronto, even for commercial boats.

The same thing happens every few years regarding check-in/check-out procedures with port captains. Ultimately, all that cruisers ever know for sure is not to expect what worked last year to work again next year. And don't ever assume that what works in Ensenada will work in Los Cabos. Indeed, informed cruisers learn what ports are good to check in/out, and what ports to skip.

I've been teaching and conducting research in Baja for a decade. I'm down there between two and four weeks at a stretch several times every year, spending grant money. I recently pulled out of a field station because I was no longer allowed to use university boats to ferry student researchers, having instead to hire local pangeros to drive unsafe, inadequate pangas. That community lost about $30,000 USD from its annual local economy. Once again, everybody loses.

One of my programs pays for camping permits for our students in a Mexican national park. The permit structure changes every year, and sometimes the rangers don't even know what the newest regulations are. I've learned to keep receipts to at least demonstrate that I've made a good faith effort to pay the piper. And, I always employ a Mexican guide to help me deal with local officials. And the rangers know that I'm always willing to serve coffee while we negotiate.

The good news is that Mexico always seems to correct its mistakes once they realize that they've engendered yet another public relations disaster. Successful cruisers learn to work within the system even when the system doesn't work. For some of us, Mexico is worth the effort.