Mexico...a Changing Place

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by xymotic

Surely it was just an oversight, and you meant to place the blame squarely on the shoulders of Alberto Gonzalez who was AG when the F&F 'idea' was implemented, and Michael Mukasey who continued it, AND Eric Holder, right? I mean it would be pretty unfair for you to hold a guy accountable for (probably) not knowing about a program but giving a guy that created it a pass... right?

Eric Holder stated, "If you want to talk about Fast and Furious, I'm the Attorney General that put an end to the misguided tactics that were used in Fast and Furious. An Attorney General who I suppose you would hold in higher regard was briefed on these kinds of tactics in an operation called Wide Receiver and did nothing to stop them -- nothing. Three hundred guns, at least, walked in that instance." Holder cited a briefing paper on "Wide Receiver", later clarified to be about the Fidel Hernandez case, prepared for Holder's predecessor, U.S. Attorney General Michael Mukasey in 2007.

Is the general responsible for his soldiers or vice versa? As Harry Truman said,"The bucks stops here." Mr. Holder does not ascribe to that belief as he was truly unaware and blameless. I wonder if he was appointed by Bush if he would be allowed to claim innocence and given a media pass. This is the most corrupt administration we have ever seen in America, bar none and far worse than the idiot Bush could have ever engineered. But, getting back to the Mexico crime issue with tourists, the following article provides some interesting reading for this sad trend. Good luck and good sailing. www.cruiselawnews.com › Crime

[xymotic]

Originally Posted by rognvald

Is the general responsible for his soldiers or vice versa? As Harry Truman said,"The bucks stops here." Mr. Holder does not ascribe to that belief as he was truly unaware and blameless. I wonder if he was appointed by Bush if he would be allowed to claim innocence and given a media pass. This is the most corrupt administration we have ever seen in America, bar none and far worse than the idiot Bush could have ever engineered. But, getting back to the Mexico crime issue with tourists, the following article provides some interesting reading for this sad trend. Good luck and good sailing. www.cruiselawnews.com › Crime

Again, I would say that he is one of three. I fail to see why you single out the guy that actually did take responsibility and not the two that created the situation. I'm not saying he's blameless, but there is LOTS of blame to go around.

Not the least of which is that we probably actually should take a look at how such purchases are tracked, prosecuted and that punishments are suitable. I'm a pretty pro-gun guy but honestly when someone on food stamps buys 20 guns and transfers them the same day, it's hard to accept that's a totally legal practice.

[Celestialsailor]

First, in response to the chain snapping theory. I agree the mooring was light for storm conditions. That being said, I doubt the chain would snap. But rather drag it's mooring which it did not. A surge would merely pick up a 1500 lbs. mooring with a breaking strength of 11,000 lbs. chain.
The other point which I will say and reflect back to my original post...Mexico is a changing place. Yes...it was great 15 years ago. According to a few sites I have have come across, the Narcos are slowly moving from the interior to the more tourist areas. In PV there was a shooting murder in the middle of the day at a Coffee or ice cream shop I think. A Canadian drug dealer was killed and there were a lot of innocent by-standards around.
My reason for the posting was to bring awareness to everyone. Especially on the west coast of the US, who are heading down to Mananaland. If you keep it in the back of your mind that this can happen, perhaps all of us will use sound judgement when securing our vessels.

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by xymotic

Again, I would say that he is one of three. I fail to see why you single out the guy that actually did take responsibility and not the two that created the situation. I'm not saying he's blameless, but there is LOTS of blame to go around.

Not the least of which is that we probably actually should take a look at how such purchases are tracked, prosecuted and that punishments are suitable. I'm a pretty pro-gun guy but honestly when someone on food stamps buys 20 guns and transfers them the same day, it's hard to accept that's a totally legal practice.

Clarification accepted. I would agree.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by zeehag

my intelligence sources are expats and dea agents i met here while being a cruising tourist -- these souls have been in place for over 10 years.
yes we can hear the gunfire occasionally---and we see corpses occasionally and we see headless souls on posts--these are results of messing with the cartel/narcos. don't mess in the spiders web and you should not be in danger.

Never a dull moment with reading your posts.... Your intelligence sources?...really? Oh and yes...the gunfire occasionally, corpses and headless souls... Nice to know Mexico is a safe place where their Gubberment is taking care of the tourists.

[Southern Star]

More than a bit of thread drift here. Guns were not involved in this incident, so the means by which firearms arrive in Mexico is completely irrelevant. The attacks on the USA in some posts (what do Chicago or New Orleans have to do with this incident?) are also irrelevant and inflammatory. Do people honestly believe that they are entitled to attack the USA every time someone reports an incident in another country?

Ultimately, I tend to agree with those who question the wisdom of leaving a boat of that size on a questionable mooring in a foreign country. Even if the mooring chain did not break, leaving a large yacht unoccupied in a relatively poor and isolated area is a recipe for disaster.

Nevertheless, who among us can honestly say that they have never done something stupid - perhaps even stupid enough to risk the loss of our boats? Navigation errors, not visually inspecting our rigging with sufficient frequency, setting out in somewhat questionable conditions, taking too long to reef, pushing a little too hard to get to a destination, etc., etc. All of these risk not only the yacht, as is the case when it is left moored, but also the crew.

In the final analysis, I feel saddened by his loss, even if it could have been avoided. Do I see this as an indictment of Mexico? Not at all. If the mooring broke because it was substandard for a boat of that size and displacement, then in fact a country is being slandered for a choice made by the skipper. Even if it was cut and the boat was then looted, surely this too is something that could have happened anywhere - can anyone truly believe that at least a few people in every country would be unable to resist the temptation of a large yacht that has been left unoccupied in an isolated area?

Brad

[bobconnie]

Come on guy's LOL when did you last see a headless body in your Marina or anchorage in Mexico?? Or even see or hear a shooting in the same places ?? Connie and I in the last 10 yrs nave spent over 2 yrs cruiseing the Gulf side of Mexico, and never seen or heard anything of this nature! We have been in every Town or village with Ocean access!! have anchored or docked in all of these places and certainly know there may be bad folks in all these places! but we don't go looking to buy drugs or do we wish to sell guns !And what the heck are you guys getting to ? We have never had a personal problem anywhere in Mexico, yes we have had a few problems with harbor masters in a place or two, but these things can be easily handled!! Most folks we meet just smile! No one has ever asked me if I wanted drugs or if I had guns to sell and I bet all these folks talking about all this crap , never have been asked about either one themselfs !! get real if ya have problem with the GOV then go out and protest ! and maybe on here ya might stick a little closer to the thread?? Mexico is a safe as anywhere ya just have to keep your eyes open and don't go looking for trouble! if ya dont do this ya will have trouble in Mexico and the USA Canada or OZ for that matter !! just sayin if ya dont think it's safe stay home !! I for one wont miss ya !!

[john540]

Things I hate about cruisersforum
1. Like all internet forums, thread drift.
2. Like all internet forums, the anonymity of being able to say something about someone without them being close enough to punch you in the nose, causes people to say things that they would normally have enough manners to keep to themselves.

Every time I hear of someone losing their boat to a reef, a beach, piracy, etc. I think, "There but for the grace of God go I". Then I think, "What lesson can be learned from their experience"? The lessons that some people on this forum seem to have learned are;
1. Other people should have more money before they try to sail anywhere
2. Other people are more stupid than I would ever be
3. Don't travel away from your safe little town
4. Mexico sucks
5. Instead of sympathizing with the loss of a fellow sailor's life savings, and trying to learn from his experiences, I should kick him while he's down, and then speculate on whether he's stupid, or devious, or a REMF.

As for me, I can't wait to sail back to Mexico.
I think that people who haven't sailed there should try to avoid commenting on what it's like there for cruisers.
To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson,
He who gets all his knowledge of Mexico from reading the newspapers is less educated than he who is illiterate!

[xymotic]

Originally Posted by rognvald

IThis is the most corrupt administration we have ever seen in America, bar none and far worse than the idiot Bush could have ever engineered.

Yeah, um... sorry but I can't really let that go unchallenged without calling BS either.

Did I somehow miss the news that Joe Biden's Chief of staff was convicted of releasing secret information in an act of political retaliation?

Because even if I did miss that news story, that would only TIE them for 'most corrupt.'

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by xymotic

Yeah, um... sorry but I can't really let that go unchallenged without calling BS either.

Did I somehow miss the news that Joe Biden's Chief of staff was convicted of releasing secret information in an act of political retaliation?

Because even if I did miss that news story, that would only TIE them for 'most corrupt.'

We would be pushing our luck to go down this political road in re: thread drift. I stand by my original statement that could be realistically corroborated and proven over a 16 hour period--which neither of us have the energy or desire to tackle and which has nothing to do with Mexico. I will reiterate a point I have made several times (perhaps to some ad nauseum). Mexico has changed for the worse. I lived there during the Seventies, have returned to visit, since departing, for extended periods over ten times, have visited every major town on the East and West coasts as well as the interior, excluding Baja, speak the language and continue to have friends who live there who are disconsolate about the negative changes that continue to effect their country for the worse. You can call it panic, unfair publicity, lack of knowledge or even stupidty but the odds have dramatically increased for violence against all tourists as the crime and economic conditions of Mexico continue to decline. It would be unheard of twenty years ago to replicate the daytime robbery of 22 cruise line passengers in Puerto Vallarta that occured earlier this year. If these robbers are so brazen to commit a group robbery in a crowded city, would they be less likely to do so in a secluded anchorage? I, for one, who has fond memories of this beautiful country will find other areas to cruise in the future where your time spent will not have the potential to degenerate into a survivalist experience. Unless that's your idea of cruising.

[Travelnik]

Originally Posted by john540

Things I hate about cruisersforum
1. Like all internet forums, thread drift.
2. Like all internet forums, the anonymity of being able to say something about someone without them being close enough to punch you in the nose, causes people to say things that they would normally have enough manners to keep to themselves.

Every time I hear of someone losing their boat to a reef, a beach, piracy, etc. I think, "There but for the grace of God go I". Then I think, "What lesson can be learned from their experience"? The lessons that some people on this forum seem to have learned are;
1. Other people should have more money before they try to sail anywhere
2. Other people are more stupid than I would ever be
3. Don't travel away from your safe little town
4. Mexico sucks
5. Instead of sympathizing with the loss of a fellow sailor's life savings, and trying to learn from his experiences, I should kick him while he's down, and then speculate on whether he's stupid, or devious, or a REMF.

As for me, I can't wait to sail back to Mexico.
I think that people who haven't sailed there should try to avoid commenting on what it's like there for cruisers.
To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson,
He who gets all his knowledge of Mexico from reading the newspapers is less educated than he who is illiterate!

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by john540

Things I hate about cruisersforum
1. Like all internet forums, thread drift.
2. Like all internet forums, the anonymity of being able to say something about someone without them being close enough to punch you in the nose, causes people to say things that they would normally have enough manners to keep to themselves.

Here is one.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...hat-87896.html

[foolishsailor]

Just a bit of preventative maintenance...

If you dont want the thread closed pages earlier than usual please try to avoid letting it degenerate into politics and personal attacks.

Thanks

[sailorboy1]

well after a while I just got lost and skipped 3 pages to the end and I still don't have the answer:

is Mexico .......... a changing place - yes/no

and I guess then I was looking for the answer to; is it better/worst

[Celestialsailor]

It wasn't a question for debate. Merely a statement from past experiences in Mexico by folks.