Merged Threads: HMS Bounty

[Watermann]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Posted by HMS Bounty on Oct 27th on the HMS Bounty Facebook page...


"Bounty's current voyage is a calculated decision...NOT AT ALL... irresponsible or with a lack of foresight as some have suggested.
The fact of the matter is...

A SHIP IS SAFER AT SEA THAN IN PORT!"

This ("a ship is safer at sea...") comes up often and it really only applies in specific situations to certain kinds of vessels.

It's interesting to note that many NY Harbor tug companies relocated their vessels to ports on LI Sound. The North Shore in particular is very well protected (New Haven has a hurricane barrier).

The USCGC Eagle was also safely left at its pier in New London.

[svOhana]

I love all you back seat sailors. Way to go! I hope your ego is impressed with yourself

[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by svOhana

I love all you back seat sailors. Way to go! I hope your ego is impressed with yourself

LOL +1

[Ti' Punch]

Since the word came out that two crew members were missing, I just keep going back to the question of head count. Every life boat drill I've ever participated in, there was somebody assigned to keep a head count. How did the rescue helicopters leave the area with two people still in the water? I can't imagine what was going through those two people's minds as the helicopters flew off and left them, assuming they were still conscious at that point.

I'm not blaming the Coast Guard. They did a hell of a job. I think it is on the crew. Somebody in the crew should have said, "Hey, there are 16 of us. Did you pick up 16 people?"

Maybe that did happen, but for reasons beyond their control, like fuel or weather conditions, the helicopters were unable to stay in that area long enough to locate the other two. Hopefully it will all come out in the inquiry. I just can't stop thinking about how terrifying it would have been to be left all alone in that sea as the helicopters flew away. Especially for Ms. Christian, whose worst fears were all coming true.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Ti' Punch

Since the word came out that two crew members were missing, I just keep going back to the question of head count. Every life boat drill I've ever participated in, there was somebody assigned to keep a head count. How did the rescue helicopters leave the area with two people still in the water? I can't imagine what was going through those two people's minds as the helicopters flew off and left them, assuming they were still conscious at that point.

I'm not blaming the Coast Guard. They did a hell of a job. I think it is on the crew. Somebody in the crew should have said, "Hey, there are 16 of us. Did you pick up 16 people?"

Maybe that did happen, but for reasons beyond their control, like fuel or weather conditions, the helicopters were unable to stay in that area long enough to locate the other two. Hopefully it will all come out in the inquiry. I just can't stop thinking about how terrifying it would have been to be left all alone in that sea as the helicopters flew away. Especially for Ms. Christian, whose worst fears were all coming true.

Sorry, but I don't understand why the assumption that they didn't know how many people had been on the ship. The captain and Ms. Christian both went into rough seas. We were talking about MOB drills not long ago and how hard it is to see the person in the water. I'm quite sure the Coast Guard knew they did not have everyone. We certainly don't know that none of the survivers said there were still two missing.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by svOhana

I love all you back seat sailors. Way to go! I hope your ego is impressed with yourself

Chill ... it's an internet forum, that's what we do.

[cheoah]

The winds were stronger where they were than at other local stations, like Duck. That's Hatteras for you. Here's the link to the data in graph form:

Data Retrieval

The winds were primarily from the N. Having been that way for some time, I think the sea state could have been brutal out there in the stream. I look forward to learning from surviving crew what the experience was like, and what tactics they used.

What canvas were they carrying? Were they taking on water from hull planking or from something like a prop shaft as suggested? Couldn't a prop shaft have been plugged? As stately as she was, and perhaps well found, sounds like she could have seen better days. My old rocker is a well made chair, good joinery, quarter sawn oak. But that chair has rocked a lot over 100 years, and is only suited to light duty now - no fat guys. OR hurricanes.

Here's what I learned from this event:

1)Do not put out to sea for coastal passage when there is a hurricane forecasted. My boat may sink in port despite my best efforts, but I will not die, and others will not have to come fetch me. Even if that's what they do, and they're really good at it.

2)Do not sail south around Cape Hatteras in late Oct with any winds from the N, much less a gale, which was a given, regardless of hurricane track. I know they were forecasted. I was going to head out last Weds, but there were already gale force winds forecasted for the Pamlico area by early Weds AM. I showed my wife and when we saw "gusts to 40 kts" we knew it was not possible to carry on with our plans. Of course the weather forecast only deteriorated from there. A look at the forecast Thurs for the Hatteras area over the weekend would have scared me if I was crew. Do you think they checked the forecast there for CT, or farther south, or a grib covering a much wider area? I mean, at ~ 960 mb, the low off FL would have looked terrifying to me, but I am but a farmer in a small ship.

Something tells me that they might have missed the forecast, just didn't have good data or something. Then they saw how severe it was, once at sea, but decided to go for it, having heaps of confidence in their ship. One does have to wonder why they just didn't head for Cape May, or Chesapeake. It had to have been vomit city out there.

Not being critical here, I feel wicked bad for the lost crew. I know people feel strongly about criticizing or questioning the captain here, but it is only natural that we wrestle with what has become a compelling mystery for all of us seagoing folk. Looking forward to some info.

[KnuckleDragger]

Originally Posted by zeehag

deep frz, since 5 days before bounty passed to the west of sandy,between sandy and the cold front, i have been watching the bounty sites and bounty fb site for info, as i knew we would be hearing from them in a negative fashion before too long.it, per their path on record. i paid good attention to the sites and i SAW the path they took. i READ the words posted in each. i had expected to see her dead in the hurricane--but they didnt even go into
is great to talk about stuff, but do not malign a captain or the crew of a now dead icon.
the weird things about this is the bounty and her master of 20 yrs and the descendent of fletcher christian were all on the same day removed from existence.

sandy was a cat 1 hurricane when bounty went down in her. that is way more than merely 40 mph winds. whoever said was only 40 mph winds was either wrong or deluded.

per your post #120:

"BOUNTY WAS IN A HURRICANE. some folks do not seem to understand this fact. "
Please make up your mind...

[watergypsy]

So very sad, and I think people do need to talk,its human nature but I also feel strongly as many others have already said, its important to be respectful. I read a blog post by Teresa Carey earlier today and I think what she had to say is worth reading. R.I.P. HMS Bounty – Decision Making at Sea - Sailing, Simplicity, and the Pursuit of Happiness
A :-)

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by watergypsy

So very sad, and I think people do need to talk,its human nature but I also feel strongly as many others have already said, its important to be respectful. I read a blog post by Teresa Carey earlier today and I think what she had to say is worth reading. R.I.P. HMS Bounty – Decision Making at Sea - Sailing, Simplicity, and the Pursuit of Happiness
A :-)

I enjoy Teresa's blog and her points are well taken with regard to what transpired once they were at sea but I think the question most of us have is why did they ever leave port with the forecasted conditions.

[GaryMayo]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Well ... you didn't ask me, but I've been thinking about the same things, and I keep coming back to one thing: the captain and Ms. Christian fell into the water trying to get into the life raft.

We have seen people more or less ridiculed here (not any posters here, but other sailors) for abandoning ship too soon. They have pointed out that in many cases, the boat is found later having survived whatever emergency it was.

But not always.

I think it's just in a true sailor's nature to consider the boat almost as carefully as they do themselves and their crew. Leaving a boat in a bad state is sort of like putting Moses into the river and hoping someone will find him ... a very dicey proposition.

What am I saying?

I think *maybe* they waited too long to abandon ship, making their escape more difficult than it might have been sooner. Maybe not -- maybe problem piled upon problem very rapidly. I would not want to leave my boat unless it were absolutely necessary, but sometimes you only know that in hindsight.

In this case, it was not a problem of knowing when to get off the boat. It was a problem of not knowing, not to get on it.

[downunder]

Dockhead,

as you said he would have been in the navigable semicircle.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by KnuckleDragger

sandy was a cat 1 hurricane when bounty went down in her. that is way more than merely 40 mph winds. whoever said was only 40 mph winds was either wrong or deluded.

per your post #120:

"BOUNTY WAS IN A HURRICANE. some folks do not seem to understand this fact. "
Please make up your mind...

Sorry, not to speak for Zee, but there is no big inconsistency. All reports (and also Hatteras weather data linked above) show Bounty experiencing no more than a F8, about 40 knots of wind, gusts of 50. So Bounty might have been "in the storm", if by "the storm" you mean the whole area affected, but she was in the navigable semicircle and quite far from the center of the storm, where she would have experienced no more than gale force winds, and following wind and seas to boot.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Sorry, not to speak for Zee, but there is no big inconsistency. All reports (and also Hatteras weather data linked above) show Bounty experiencing no more than a F8, about 40 knots of wind, gusts of 50. So Bounty might have been "in the storm", if by "the storm" you mean the whole area affected, but she was in the navigable semicircle and quite far from the center of the storm, where she would have experienced no more than gale force winds, and following wind and seas to boot.

Dockhead,

Perhaps a few should look up a text for the navigable semicircle of storms.

[xymotic]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

I would imagine that, even adjusted for inflation, the cost of a truly old warship like USS Constitution has exceeded the cost of her construction exponentially. Wooden ships are only as strong as the willingness to pay for their upkeep, and that can be steep.

I don't think it's even POSSIBLE to build such a ship if you had unlimited resources. The fact is the British had run out of oak timbers at the time of the American Revolution.