Merged Threads: HMS Bounty

[Astrid]

Appearance means nothing as my long time friend and Master Shipwright said as we boarded her while she was on the ways. Carful where you step and what you grab hold of she is not as stout as she looks...

Let's see, Bounty was 50 years old, and if I remember correctly, the useful life of a wooden merchantman of her day was considered to be 15 or 20 years. The original Bounty was only about three years old when purchased by the Royal Navy for the fateful botanical expedition to the South Seas.

[sailronin]

It's a tragedy that lives were lost, this is compounded by the fact that it was a completely avoidable tragedy.
The AIS track for the ship show her heading almost due south, into a powerful and fully formed hurricane. A course from Long Island sound heading E to NE may have been prudent, certainly not south.
As to sailing towards the "safe quadrant", I would have to call BS. This is not the 1700s where the master had to guess where the eye of the storm was located and where it was heading. All the weather maps and computer models clearly showed that Sandy would impact the mid Atlantic states.
For whatever reason the Captain put to sea at the wrong time and then headed in the wrong direction. Bad judgement, fatal result.

[zeehag]

if you had read the bounty's pages you would have read where the GENERATOR failed, which caused the pumps to quit. not engines, which were going until over watering inside boat made them quit, the pumps were GENERATOR run pumps.

they would have made it to st petes for their show, but for pump failure DUE TO GENERATOR FAILURE.
not engine failure-
-dont you guys go to source of anything for your info?? get with it, kids-- is all on the website and fb pages.
you may wish to red them -- they are very interesting. even showed inb mor ethan one picture the path the bounty took per tracking unit--was not inside sandy, nor inside any storm front--he was ridin t between front and hurricane and on smother waters and calmer winds. is why the discrepancy between that which we know--hurricane--omg--and reality of the 40 mph an d 13 ft seas--not inside any storm system.
y'all really SHOULD peruse the sites before making any more disrespectful comments about a dead boat with a dead captain and a dead crew person.

out of respect for the dead, may we please, dear mods, please close all the bounty threads so folks can FINALLY show respect for the dead. thankyou.

[Blue Stocking]

Sailing east of the storm wouldn't have been an easy ride either.
We (Bermuda) was getting gusts to 50kts, steady to 35knts at that time.

[GaryMayo]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Posted by HMS Bounty on Oct 27th on the HMS Bounty Facebook page...

"Bounty's current voyage is a calculated decision...NOT AT ALL... irresponsible or with a lack of foresight as some have suggested.
The fact of the matter is...

A SHIP IS SAFER AT SEA THAN IN PORT!"

Typing in all caps shows an attitude adjustment may be called for. I think he got that.

[GaryMayo]

Originally Posted by zeehag

out of respect for the dead, may we please, dear mods, please close all the bounty threads so folks can FINALLY show respect for the dead. thankyou.

People wish to talk, let them talk. Good for the healing all of us need. You have posted in this thread many times, who are you to say enough is enough?

[DeepFrz]

I don't know where you are getting your information Zee, but I went to the bounty web site and the facebook page and there isn't a lot of information on either one.

[sabray]

Old adage it wasn't one failure but a culmination of many. Failure of the generators didn't sink the boat. A breech of water tight integrity sunk the boat. Then the failure of the power source to pump the boat allowed the boat to sink. Guess the boat didn't go where it did cause it was ideal. Probably it seemed like the best plan given a bunch of circumstances. Original plan was to go East . Given the size of the storm it may have seemed reasonable to change plan and get in between the coast and safer quadrant of the storm. They almost made it. Im just guessing and in no way disrespecting any other mariners.

[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I would just point out that given their position relative to the storm center and presumably on a southbound course that they would have been running with the wind and seas, not pounding into them.

He most likely was in the Gulf Stream (looks that way from the location reports and color of the water in the pics). With that much wind opposing the current, it would have been a living hell out there.

[zeehag]

deep frz, since 5 days before bounty passed to the west of sandy,between sandy and the cold front, i have been watching the bounty sites and bounty fb site for info, as i knew we would be hearing from them in a negative fashion before too long. i paid good attention to the sites and i SAW the path they took. i READ the words posted in each. i had expected to see her dead in the hurricane--but they didnt even go into it, per their path on record.
is great to talk about stuff, but do not malign a captain or the crew of a now dead icon.
the weird things about this is the bounty and her master of 20 yrs and the descendent of fletcher christian were all on the same day removed from existence.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

The thing that I take away from this is that the Bounty crew had everything going for them in terms rescue and yet one is dead and one is missing.

1. EPIRB that successfully notified authorities
2. Apparently survival suits for all crew members (and a boat that despite its problems was big enough and stable enough to allow the suits to be donned)
3. Large life rafts capable of accommodating the entire crew twice over
4. Within spitting distance of at least four major SAR centers, all of which were on high alert and particularly well prepared to respond because of the approach of Sandy
5. Response from SAR practically before it happened

Even with all of these "advantages" it was too late for Ms. Christian and the captain is still missing, possibly still floating around in a tiny one-man "life raft".

I feel sorrow for the families that have lost loved ones, and I can armchair captain the captain's decisions until the cows come home, but the big question to me is "what can I learn from the position they ended up in?" Despite a nearly textbook SAR effort one is dead and one is missing. I wonder how that could be different and want to learn from it, since I suspect if it ever happens to me I will be much farther removed from such SAR assets.

There have been threads ad nauseam on CF about EPIRB vs. PLB vs. SPOT vs. Yellow Brick vs. In Reach vs... Would some form of radio transmitter on the survival suits have increased the chances for Ms. Christian and Mr. Waldridge? A PLB? AIS? MOB? Would they have been better off with 16 PLBs than one EPIRB for the ship? Would any radio 6" above the water surface part of the time have been effective in the conditions encountered? Dye packets on the survival suits? Flares on the survival suits (assuming person could operate them)? I'm sure there will be lots of stuff that comes out of any inquiry, but I suspect the things I want to know/learn from this are items that won't be covered. The only thing I know is that the crew of Bounty were far better equipped/prepared than I, and yet it was not enough.

Well ... you didn't ask me, but I've been thinking about the same things, and I keep coming back to one thing: the captain and Ms. Christian fell into the water trying to get into the life raft.

We have seen people more or less ridiculed here (not any posters here, but other sailors) for abandoning ship too soon. They have pointed out that in many cases, the boat is found later having survived whatever emergency it was.

But not always.

I think it's just in a true sailor's nature to consider the boat almost as carefully as they do themselves and their crew. Leaving a boat in a bad state is sort of like putting Moses into the river and hoping someone will find him ... a very dicey proposition.

What am I saying?

I think *maybe* they waited too long to abandon ship, making their escape more difficult than it might have been sooner. Maybe not -- maybe problem piled upon problem very rapidly. I would not want to leave my boat unless it were absolutely necessary, but sometimes you only know that in hindsight.

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

He most likely was in the Gulf Stream (looks that way from the location reports and color of the water in the pics). With that much wind opposing the current, it would have been a living hell out there.

I've been in the Gulf stream in a wind opposing current situation, though clearly not as bad as these conditions but perhaps nearly proportional when one compares the height of the sea to the size of the boat. There was still a major difference between heading into the seas and running with them. Going into them was bone jaring beyond belief, whereas running with them was merely uncomfortable. Going into them I feared for the structural integrity of my boat, but running with them I had no concerns about structural integrity at all. I would expect the same would have been occuring here.

Zee, I take issue with your statement he was not in a hurricane. I'm in NC and I was in a hurricane that night and I was about 60 miles further away from the center than they were. I've been in a lot of hurricanes and this had all of the characteristics of a hurricane. He was not in hurricane force winds, except perhaps in gusts, but that does not mean he was not in the hurricane. He was in the left side of the storm which is the weakest, but that doesn't mean he wasn't in the hurricane!

[Rakuflames]

Personally I don't think the thread should be shut down. These are serious issues and worth discussing. I think we should all strive to assume that people mean no disrespect. There are lessons to be learned from this.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

He most likely was in the Gulf Stream (looks that way from the location reports and color of the water in the pics). With that much wind opposing the current, it would have been a living hell out there.

If he was in the Gulfstream, that was a bad scenario. We had 28' waves in the Gulfstream before Sandy's center was anywhere near that spot. The storm was worse by the time it was off the Carolinas -- not as strong winds, but remarkably low pressure, spread out and bigger, and had lots of time to pile up and churn the water around it.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I've been in the Gulf stream in a wind opposing current situation, though clearly not as bad as these conditions but perhaps nearly proportional when one compares the height of the sea to the size of the boat. There was still a major difference between heading into the seas and running with them. Going into them was bone jaring beyond belief, whereas running with them was merely uncomfortable. Going into them I feared for the structural integrity of my boat, but running with them I had no concerns about structural integrity at all. I would expect the same would have been occuring here.

Zee, I take issue with your statement he was not in a hurricane. I'm in NC and I was in a hurricane that night and I was about 60 miles further away from the center than they were. I've been in a lot of hurricanes and this had all of the characteristics of a hurricane. He was not in hurricane force winds, except perhaps in gusts, but that does not mean he was not in the hurricane. He was in the left side of the storm which is the weakest, but that doesn't mean he wasn't in the hurricane!

I agree with you. Not calling Sandy a hurricane at that point was a meteorological technicality. It was a fierce storm and had tremendous power to disturb the water.