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Old 20-01-2014, 13:53   #586
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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2012 steel was so last... last year... 2101 is the future baby!

(I think... still investigating....)
You still in 2013?
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Old 20-01-2014, 14:04   #587
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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You still in 2013?
Last.... last.... Weren't you ever 5??? Thinking this way keeps me grounded...
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Old 20-01-2014, 14:14   #588
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Dear moderator/s

Can you pls open up a new tread titled " rudder problems, materials, diameters and designs"and redirect all these technical details to this tread ?
Thank you
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Old 20-01-2014, 14:17   #589
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Last.... last.... Weren't you ever 5??? Thinking this way keeps me grounded...
LOL, I guess I had yet another keyboard interface error. Guess I need a new keyboard. yeah, that will fix the problem....

Don't know where 2012 came from...

Sorry about the mixup.

Thanks
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Old 20-01-2014, 14:23   #590
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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LOL, I guess I had yet another keyboard interface error. Guess I need a new keyboard. yeah, that will fix the problem....

Don't know where 2012 came from...

Sorry about the mixup.

Thanks
HA!

Wait until you make a mistake, want to edit it... and the edit button vanishes... 15 minute window... after that.... like it was chiseled into a stone tablet

(never happened to me though.......................)
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Old 20-01-2014, 14:23   #591
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
Aluminum and carbon fiber rudder post have caused far more problems than properly designed Stainless Steel rudder post.

SS rudder posts have proven them self’s over time to be far superior to all the other materials used.

You mean aluminium mixed with CF? or just Cf alone, Swan or Sabre use CF rudders stocks, i will say the oposite, SS is a pain in the ass , is the cheaper material used for rudders, corrosion is the enemy, Cf is a excelent material if properly designed and build it, the Volvo ocean race fleet use Cf all the way, rudders etc.. the Vende Globe same, and almost any hig tech boat got some CF here or there. Aluminium could be the case but i doubt CF..... Cheers...
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Old 20-01-2014, 15:11   #592
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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You mean aluminium mixed with CF? or just Cf alone, Swan or Sabre use CF rudders stocks, i will say the oposite, SS is a pain in the ass , is the cheaper material used for rudders, corrosion is the enemy, Cf is a excelent material if properly designed and build it, the Volvo ocean race fleet use Cf all the way, rudders etc.. the Vende Globe same, and almost any hig tech boat got some CF here or there. Aluminium could be the case but i doubt CF..... Cheers...
Using Carbon fiber on the rudder post will work until it doesn't.

Carbon fiber is very stiff, so the rudder will just snap off all of a sudden. A bent SS rudder in most cases is far better than no rudder at all.

Carbon fiber on the rudder post is just like having a Carbon fiber propeller shaft. Let me know how great that works for you also.

Carbon fiber does not like back a forth torque and twisting and its failure mode is not predictable for a cruising boat.

What works well on racing boats usually suck big time on a cruising boat. Cruisers need there hardware to last and not just fall off.
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Old 20-01-2014, 15:45   #593
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Wasn't there a Hanse yacht with an aluminium rudder stock which sank when the rudder fell off? IIRC in quite benign conditions too. Off the Irish coast.

Then the liferaft failed to inflate, if they hadn't been sailing in company they almost certainly would have been left swimming in the North Atlantic until hypothermia took them aluminum and carbon fiber rudder post have caused far more problems than properly designed Stainless Steel rudder post.
That boat rudder failed due to an incorrectly fitting of a autopilot tiller arm , which was fixed without. Hanse s advice half way between the top and bottom bearing causing sideways loading of the aluminium shaft. That's caused it's failure after several years.

The owner purchased another Hanse.

Dave
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Old 20-01-2014, 16:06   #594
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
That boat rudder failed due to an incorrectly fitting of a autopilot tiller arm , which was fixed without. Hanse s advice half way between the top and bottom bearing causing sideways loading of the aluminium shaft. That's caused it's failure after several years.

The owner purchased another Hanse.

Dave
I'm not sure that I am visualizing that installation correctly, but it sounds like a pretty normal position for the autopilot tiller. Perhaps that failure points to a inappropriate use of aluminium, for such installations on stainless rudder posts commonly don't fail.

In general, I can't understand why more rudders on high end and high performance vessels are not made from duplex alloys such as 2205. It isn't that much more expensive and has many desirable characteristics.

Jim
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Old 20-01-2014, 16:25   #595
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
Using Carbon fiber on the rudder post will work until it doesn't.

Carbon fiber is very stiff, so the rudder will just snap off all of a sudden. A bent SS rudder in most cases is far better than no rudder at all.

Carbon fiber on the rudder post is just like having a Carbon fiber propeller shaft. Let me know how great that works for you also.

Carbon fiber does not like back a forth torque and twisting and its failure mode is not predictable for a cruising boat.

What works well on racing boats usually suck big time on a cruising boat. Cruisers need there hardware to last and not just fall off.
I dont agree , this isue with the Alpha 42 will be diferent if both rudders fall down, Cf is not just related to racing, there is hundreds of Cruising boats sporting CF rudders, and in most cases without any isue, yes i could agree with you that Cf break and dont bend but again there is some companys doing rudders very well, very rare to see in the net something related to a rudder lost in boats like a swan , sabre, or even Gunboats.

Here there is a link of a Composite company doing rudders .
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...59568121,d.cWc


And here the list of recent Cf rudders projects..
TachyonIII Santa Cruz 82
Aerodyne 38 THIN ICE
Puma Volvo 70
Golddigger J-44
Lyman Norse Morelli & Melvin 60' CAT
Lyman Norse Paine 54 New Morning
Lyman Norse Waianawa Refit
Morris 29
Morris 52
Spencer 42 Replacement
Swan 44 Replacement
12 Meter Victory
12 Meter KZ7
Andrews 39 Bien Roulee
Frers 33 Replacement


J Boats/Pearson Composites; J100 and J124 production
New Castro 60 Day Sailor
Botin & Carkeek TP52 in New Zealand; "Atalantia XVI"
Nelson Marek 30 IRC Japan
X79 class rudders
Swan 51 replacement
Swan 82 replacement
Fontaine 98 at Hodgdon Yachts; "Windcrest"
Chuck Paine/French &Webb 43; "Erica"
JV TP52/Goetz; "Platoon"
RP 62/Lyman Morse cruiser/racer
Waterline/Farr 40 rudder shafts
Pedrick/Pearson Composites "Navy 44" fleet
12 Meters "KZ3", "KZ5", "KZ7", and "Freedom" ('05-'06)


IMX 45
Reichel/Pugh 81 "Carerra"
Carroll Marine 60; "Hissar" and "Numbers" to optimize under IRC
Jim Taylor 54 cruiser; "Glory"
Melvin/Morelli 60 trimaran
Hunter 43
Farr/Goetz TP52's; "Atalantia IV", "Pegasus", "Staycalm"
Chuck Paine/French & Webb 50 Ketch; "Wings of Grace"
Sabre Yachts 42 rudder shafts
Waterline/Farr 40 rudder shafts


Brooklin Boat Yard 76; "Goshawk"
Lyman Morse Sequin 52; "Fairweather"
Joubert/Nivelt 86, Twin rudders, built under Bureau Veritas inspection
Taylor 38
Taylor 42
Farr/Goetz TP52's; "Esmerelda", "Bright Star", "Sjambok"
Sabre Yachts 42 rudder shafts

Nelson/Marek TP52; "Yassou"
Swan 44; "Akaisia"
J35; "Black Seal"
2 Seguin 44's

Fontaine 118 retractable dagger rudder; "Whisper"
S&S 112 rudder manufactured under Lloyds supervision
Various Swan 44, 51 and 56 replacements

210 Swan 80" Pendragon" Davidson 69'"America One" IACC"Courageous""Equation" STP 65"Hemisphere" 150' ft catamaran"Hissar""Interpid'"Merlin""Orient Express""Ran " Maxi racer"Rapid Transit""Swing" tri"USA""Vailant" 6 meterAlerion 38Andrews 55B&C TP 52Baltic 42Bennet 46Brooklin 50Brooklin 90 "Bequia"Brooklin76Buck 52C&C 33C&C 34C&C 35C&C 38Cape Fear 38 Chuck Paine 50CM 60 'sCoast Guard 44Covey Island 62Espirit 41Farr 52Farr 53Farr 63 " Spirit"Farr 70Farr TP 52First 42Fontaine 50 Rockport MarineFontaine 36 Rockport MarineFontine 98Frers 2 tonFrers 33Frers 41 Friendship 40sGunboat 66Hinckley 42 DShunter 426J 35J125J133J30J44J90Jaun IRC 52Jon 42JV irc 65 "Numbers"JV TP 52Ker 11.5Kernan 47 Westerly MarineKirby 25Little Harbor 65Lutra 56Mason 44 Matt smith 29Melges 20Melges 24morrelli 65Morris 29Morris 36Morris 42Morris 45Morris 48Morris 52Morris 57Morris OS 42NM Santa Cruz 52NM 70 "Pegasus"NM GP33NM IRC 34NM J125NM TP 52NM TP 52" Lucky"NYYC Clun Swan 42 open 40Owens Clarke 50Oyster 41Pedrick 80 "Nirvana"Perry 36Perry 59Piane 54Quest 33Rhodes 19Rodgers 82RP 75RP 82 "Highland Fling"S&S 125S&S 34Sabre 362Sabre 386Sabre 402Sabre 426Sabre 452Saga 43Saga 48Santa Cruz 37Santa Cruz 50Sea Quest 36Shark Sig 45Spencer 42Swan 43Swan 48Tartan 41Tatan 30Taylor 41Taylor 54Tripp 41Tripp 47Tripp 56Tripp 62W 37Wally 6
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Old 20-01-2014, 16:26   #596
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

As I understand it, the major problem in this case was the bent rudder stuck in position, making the boat go in circles.
Everything else did not seem a fatal failure.
If the rudder just broke off, they would be better off in this case.
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Old 20-01-2014, 16:44   #597
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

My plan B for getting home without calling for help if I lost my catamaran rudders would be to fly a storm sail which is quite balanced on my boat for its size and then use a drogue or some buckets fixed to a point on a bridle off the stern.

The bridle would then be ‘trimmed’ more to the Port or Stb. side of the sterns by using the mainsheet winches. It may take me hours to get the trim right, but would allow me to keep the boat moving.

I would not be going fast but should be able to make the 300 miles east to Bermuda or west to Cape Henry
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Old 20-01-2014, 16:59   #598
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
My plan B for getting home without calling for help if I lost my catamaran rudders would be to fly a storm sail which is quite balanced on my boat for its size and then use a drogue or some buckets fixed to a point on a bridle off the stern.

The bridle would then be ‘trimmed’ more to the Port or Stb. side of the sterns by using the mainsheet winches. It may take me hours to get the trim right, but would allow me to keep the boat moving.

I would not be going fast but should be able to make the 300 miles east to Bermuda or west to Cape Henry



A bucket handle will come right off. I'd cut the bottom out of a bucket and drill a bunch of holes around the rim to lace a line into so you can tie a bridle on a swivel to it. If I only had bucket and line to work with. It'd probably still chafe through pretty quick unless done carefully.
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Old 20-01-2014, 17:09   #599
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
I'm not sure that I am visualizing that installation correctly, but it sounds like a pretty normal position for the autopilot tiller. Perhaps that failure points to a inappropriate use of aluminium, for such installations on stainless rudder posts commonly don't fail.

In general, I can't understand why more rudders on high end and high performance vessels are not made from duplex alloys such as 2205. It isn't that much more expensive and has many desirable characteristics.

Jim
The Hanse recommended position is close to the bearing as possible. This is to avoid flexing forces from the AP tiller arm that AP arm was fitted too far from the bearing

Dave
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Old 20-01-2014, 17:10   #600
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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A bucket handle will come right off. I'd cut the bottom out of a bucket and drill a bunch of holes around the rim to lace a line into so you can tie a bridle on a swivel to it. If I only had bucket and line to work with. It'd probably still chafe through pretty quick unless done carefully.
Your right the bucket handles would be gone in a hurry. Line would hold out much better.

I have lots of extra line and a few buckets and a small drogue. Would spend a few hours figuring out what configuration would work the best then another few hours to learn the trimming, but at least the stern would be the stern and the bow would be the bow. What else would I be doing.
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