Travel no passport

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Cpt Pat

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...s-citizen.html


https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid%3AUSC-prelim-title8-section1185&num=0&edition=prelim

As I said...you swore an oath but they don't enforce it if you choose to ignore what you swore you would do.

PS: Someone mentioned, the US Govt can't take your former nation's passport away. That is true but that doesn't mean you can't notify your former nation that you are no longer a citizen and return the passport....as stated in your oath.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

As I said...you swore an oath but they don't enforce it if you choose to ignore what you swore you would do.



PS: Someone mentioned, the US Govt can't take your former nation's passport away. That is true but that doesn't mean you can't notify your former nation that you are no longer a citizen and return the passport....as stated in your oath.

Im no immigration lawyer, but I know plenty of folks w dual citizenship...I doubt they are all doing this illegally. These are all afluent to wealthly folks who travel to and conduct business in the USA on a regular basis.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

As I said...you swore an oath but they don't enforce it if you choose to ignore what you swore you would do.

PS: Someone mentioned, the US Govt can't take your former nation's passport away. That is true but that doesn't mean you can't notify your former nation that you are no longer a citizen and return the passport....as stated in your oath.

The US clearly allows dual citizenship for naturalized citizens, even though oath does seem to preclude it:

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;

[Tim Robotham]

It is not illegal under US law, to continue to be a citizen of multiple countries, and that is very common. That oath has nothing to do with renouncing your old citizenships it just means you are swearing to be loyal to the US. Just remaining a citizen does not mean being loyal to that government and its foreign policies.

In practice the US government is really only concerned about your loyalty if there is a conflict with your other country.

[B23iL23]

Tim is correct. My daughter has dual U.S. and Irish passports.

Only thing that she must not do is enter policies or military (you can only represent the flag of one nation). When travelling to the U.S. she must always use her U.S passport but any other country she can use either.

Originally Posted by Tim Robotham

It is not illegal under US law, to continue to be a citizen of multiple countries, and that is very common. That oath has nothing to do with renouncing your old citizenships it just means you are swearing to be loyal to the US. Just remaining a citizen does not mean being loyal to that government and its foreign policies.

In practice the US government is really only concerned about your loyalty if there is a conflict with your other country.

[steffan]

Nobody in their right mind is going to go to the trouble to formally renounce their former citizenship, and I doubt with most countries just returning your passport would even count. Just because I don't have a passport and no longer consider myself a citizen doesn't mean that my former country no longer considers me so.

There are plenty of other grey areas in the US naturalization process. You are supposed to list every crime you've ever committed with no qualifiers. Not convicted of or arrested for, committed. Jaywalking, speeding, parking tickets? If the US government wanted to undo naturalization on a technicality I expect they could do so to anyone, depending on the quality of their legal representation.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Tim Robotham

It is not illegal under US law, to continue to be a citizen of multiple countries, and that is very common. That oath has nothing to do with renouncing your old citizenships it just means you are swearing to be loyal to the US. Just remaining a citizen does not mean being loyal to that government and its foreign policies.

In practice the US government is really only concerned about your loyalty if there is a conflict with your other country.

The Oath very much does say you are renouncing your old citizenship (naturalized citizens).

Yes, in practice, the US government ignores it but if the Oath is a legal requirement for citizenship, failure to enforce doesn't make it legal.

[Tim Robotham]

You are renouncing any obligations of loyalty from that other citizenship like military service.

You are not in any way required to give up the actual citizenship in the other countries.

And a U.S. citizen is free to become a citizen of other countries. Doing that has no impact on your U.S. citizenship.

In theory if the other country was at war with the U.S., and you took up arms against the U.S. they might try to take your U.S. citizenship away, but even that case is not straightforward.

Originally Posted by valhalla360

The Oath very much does say you are renouncing your old citizenship (naturalized citizens).



Yes, in practice, the US government ignores it but if the Oath is a legal requirement for citizenship, failure to enforce doesn't make it legal.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

Tim is correct. My daughter has dual U.S. and Irish passports.

Only thing that she must not do is enter policies or military (you can only represent the flag of one nation). When travelling to the U.S. she must always use her U.S passport but any other country she can use either.

Similar, Ive got a Honduran friend w USA/Honduran dual citizenship who was considering running for office in Honduras. Honduran law would require him to renounce his USA citizenship if elected.

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by steffan

Nobody in their right mind is going to go to the trouble to formally renounce their former citizenship,

Wealthy people do this all the time for the tax advantages.

[TabbyCat]

Originally Posted by Benz

Contact a Panama Canal agent: it may be that if they do your paperwork in advance, while you approach, your yacht can be in transit and you don't have to clear in to the country. .

Have any of you posters ever actually transited the Panama Canal? I have (3 times). Unless you own a 1,000 foot long tanker, as a small cruising yacht you will be anchored in the territorial waters of Panama and so need to check in, for which you will need a passport. You will have to apply in person, pay in advance and post a security deposit at the various offices ASHORE. Aterward, you will be at anchor in Panamanian waters while you await your transit date. Note that your transit date may be cancelled at the last minute due to scheduling problems.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by steffan

Nobody in their right mind is going to go to the trouble to formally renounce their former citizenship, and I doubt with most countries just returning your passport would even count. Just because I don't have a passport and no longer consider myself a citizen doesn't mean that my former country no longer considers me so.



There are plenty of other grey areas in the US naturalization process. You are supposed to list every crime you've ever committed with no qualifiers. Not convicted of or arrested for, committed. Jaywalking, speeding, parking tickets? If the US government wanted to undo naturalization on a technicality I expect they could do so to anyone, depending on the quality of their legal representation.

Thousands of USA citizens formally renounce their citizenship every year. The numbers have spiked dramatically over the past decade. Not likely they are all crazy.

I know several people who have renounced their USA citizenship. They have done so for a mix of financial/taxation and political/philosophical reasons. Its a big decision and not normally reversible.

And, from a practical perspective you've got to be a citizen of somewhere...so where do you choose? All governments have some degree of corruption, distasteful behaviour, and taxation.

[B23iL23]

My wife and I did. Lived in the U.S. for years, daughter born there, got passports and years later decided to move back to Europe. In order to simplify taxes and other stuff, we renounced our U.S. citizenship. Remember the U.S. taxes you on your Worldwide income (unlike most other countries) so it gets kind of complicated especially if you have no intention of ever living in the U.S. again.

Originally Posted by steffan

Nobody in their right mind is going to go to the trouble to formally renounce their former citizenship, and I doubt with most countries just returning your passport would even count. Just because I don't have a passport and no longer consider myself a citizen doesn't mean that my former country no longer considers me so.

There are plenty of other grey areas in the US naturalization process. You are supposed to list every crime you've ever committed with no qualifiers. Not convicted of or arrested for, committed. Jaywalking, speeding, parking tickets? If the US government wanted to undo naturalization on a technicality I expect they could do so to anyone, depending on the quality of their legal representation.

[steffan]

Fair enough, I concede your various points. I am guilty of analyzing citizenship renunciation from my own perspective as a natural-born UK citizen and naturalized US. I would never renounce my UK citizenship, Brexit mess notwithstanding, as it costs me nothing but periodic passport renewal.

I'm not wealthy enough to warrant renouncing my US citizenship for tax purposes, and while any of my kids is still resident in the US I can't imagine giving up the right to reside, even if my wife and I depart for good as intended, in a few years.