Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Elan, etc. mass production boats that circumnavigated

[Greg K]

While clearly many modern flat bottom, fin keel production boats have been crossing oceans, it would not be my choice for offshore work. Too much slamming for a start, and the middle of the ocean is not the place to have problems with lose keel bolts or damage to the underlying structural grid, if you hit something at hull speed.

As for CE ratings, I think the European CE A rating means very little when ocean going boats are not designed or built to withstand collisions at 5 knots without sustaining critical damage to the keel support structure.

As an aside, I suppose one could be forgiven for suspecting that the reason Europe applies it's own CE standard for all imported boats, rather than accept the equally thorough American ABYC building standards, is to protect it's own boat building industry at the expense of non-European boat builders. It is a form of trade barrier and I am astounded that the US, Canada and many other countries have put up with it while their own nations' boat builders has been slowly decimated by mass produced European imports.

[David Ess]

Originally Posted by Greg K

While clearly many modern flat bottom, fin keel production boats have been crossing oceans, it would not be my choice for offshore work. Too much slamming for a start, and the middle of the ocean is not the place to have problems with lose keel bolts or damage to the underlying structural grid, if you hit something at hull speed.

As for CE ratings, I think the European CE A rating means very little when ocean going boats are not designed or built to withstand collisions at 5 knots without sustaining critical damage to the keel support structure.

As an aside, I suppose one could be forgiven for suspecting that the reason Europe applies it's own CE standard for all imported boats, rather than accept the equally thorough American ABYC building standards, is to protect it's own boat building industry at the expense of non-European boat builders. It is a form of trade barrier and I am astounded that the US, Canada and many other countries have put up with it while their own nations' boat builders has been slowly decimated by mass produced European imports.

On 2 points. The CE ratings probaly mean SOMETHING, because I just sent in an article from Jeauneau describing why their various boats have various ratings. Indeed, if they didnt, they would just say they all have the highest rating, right?
2) If its true that the ABYC standards are just as "equally thorough", it it would follow that they woul also be accepted, wouldnt it?
On the other hand, if it really is a nother 'non-tariff trade barrier', then I deplore it. (Note regarding my recent post about my personal comment policy. I just gave a personal comment now, so if somebody disagrees with my strong position against manipulated trade, unfair trade practices , etc. Ill take it with good grace if you prefer say, command economies, planned economies, etc.)

[David Ess]

Originally Posted by Greg K

While clearly many modern flat bottom, fin keel production boats have been crossing oceans, it would not be my choice for offshore work. Too much slamming for a start, and the middle of the ocean is not the place to have problems with lose keel bolts or damage to the underlying structural grid, if you hit something at hull speed.

As for CE ratings, I think the European CE A rating means very little when ocean going boats are not designed or built to withstand collisions at 5 knots without sustaining critical damage to the keel support structure.

As an aside, I suppose one could be forgiven for suspecting that the reason Europe applies it's own CE standard for all imported boats, rather than accept the equally thorough American ABYC building standards, is to protect it's own boat building industry at the expense of non-European boat builders. It is a form of trade barrier and I am astounded that the US, Canada and many other countries have put up with it while their own nations' boat builders has been slowly decimated by mass produced European imports.

Regarding fin keels coming loose. Some boats have them attached to their own water tight housing. Thus if you hit a floating container, it will shear off, with no water ingress.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by David Ess

Regarding fin keels coming loose. Some boats have them attached to their own water tight housing. Thus if you hit a floating container, it will shear off, with no water ingress.

Citation please - What type of boat is this that is designed with a breakaway keel and how does it stay upright? I'm thinking a lost keel won't allow much water in anyway because the boat will be turtle in a few minutes.

Thoughts?

Peter

[sailorboy1]

I have been on this forum a while. This thread could be from the first day I was a member and the only thing that has changed about it are the experts in the discussion.

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by David Ess

On 2 points. The CE ratings probaly mean SOMETHING, because I just sent in an article from Jeauneau describing why their various boats have various ratings. Indeed, if they didnt, they would just say they all have the highest rating, right?
2) If its true that the ABYC standards are just as "equally thorough", it it would follow that they woul also be accepted, wouldnt it?
On the other hand, if it really is a nother 'non-tariff trade barrier', then I deplore it. (Note regarding my recent post about my personal comment policy. I just gave a personal comment now, so if somebody disagrees with my strong position against manipulated trade, unfair trade practices , etc. Ill take it with good grace if you prefer say, command economies, planned economies, etc.)

To be fair, I did not say CE ratings mean " nothing" I said CE A ( open ocean) rating means "little" when boats receiving such a rating cannot withstand a collision to their keel at 5 knots without critical damage.

Mandated building standards might sound like a good thing, but one must remember that they are based on the MINIMUM that is required. So in that sense it does mean little when manufacturers brag about building to this or that standard, as all it means is that they are building to a MINIMUM standard and, often, especially with mass manufacturers, never ABOVE such standards because the bean counters who have never set foot on a sailing yacht see it as an unnecessary expense. Builders of high quality boats, such as my own Shannon 28, almost always build over and above any standards, whether it's the layup schedule or bulkhead tabbing, thru bolting of hull/deck joint etc...

Waving mandated standards used by this or that manufacturer tells you very little about the suitability of the design or build for off shore service.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Greg K

To be fair, I did not say CE ratings mean " nothing" I said CE A ( open ocean) rating means "little" when boats receiving such a rating cannot withstand a collision to their keel at 5 knots without critical damage.

Mandated building standards might sound like a good thing, but one must remember that they are based on the MINIMUM that is required. So in that sense it does mean little when manufacturers brag about building to this or that standard, as all it means is that they are building to a MINIMUM standard and, often, especially with mass manufacturers, never ABOVE such standards because the bean counters who have never set foot on a sailing yacht see it as an unnecessary expense. Builders of high quality boats, such as my own Shannon 28, almost always build over and above any standards, whether it's the layup schedule or bulkhead tabbing, thru bolting of hull/deck joint etc...

Waving mandated standards used by this or that manufacturer tells you very little about the suitability of the design or build for off shore service.

A+1..

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by boatman61

We'll they are 'Sailboats', one learns to manage the limitations.
One has to be prepared to sit out the calms instead of chasing clouds on the horizon and wasting fuel.. longest wait to date 9 days.. one can also supplement fuel by carrying 4 x 25litre Jerry cans strapped on deck by the shrouds.. something I used to do in the Med, fill up with cheap fuel in Gib or Cueta and it would last me for the season.
Water is less of a challenge these days with water makers but with rigorous planning and strict rationing water can go a long way.. I have done 49days nonstop (solo) and 4000nm with 220litres of water in my tank and liquids supplemented with tinned fruit and soups.
Cook basmati rice which absorbs all the water 1 cup rice 2 cups water.. things like pasta that need boiling use sea water (no added salt ) result in zero freshwater wastage, same with washing dishes and pans, wash in salt then spray with fresh from a spray bottle.
Sail naked when it's warm.. less laundry.
Bathe with salt water then rinse off with 2.5litres fresh in a solar shower bag.
That was my first transatlantic, arrived UK from Caribe with around 30litres still in my tank.. zero fuel.. that's how I learnt not to chase clouds..

My hat off to you, sir. 220 liters in 49 days over a distance of 4000 nm is a feat, even in those days. But why on earth didn't you stop in Horta where every crew on every boat that came in would have been lining up to buy you a beer or 20.

[David Ess]

Originally Posted by Greg K

To be fair, I did not say CE ratings mean " nothing" I said CE A ( open ocean) rating means "little" when boats receiving such a rating cannot withstand a collision to their keel at 5 knots without critical damage.

Mandated building standards might sound like a good thing, but one must remember that they are based on the MINIMUM that is required. So in that sense it does mean little when manufacturers brag about building to this or that standard, as all it means is that they are building to a MINIMUM standard and, often, especially with mass manufacturers, never ABOVE such standards because the bean counters who have never set foot on a sailing yacht see it as an unnecessary expense. Builders of high quality boats, such as my own Shannon 28, almost always build over and above any standards, whether it's the layup schedule or bulkhead tabbing, thru bolting of hull/deck joint etc...

Waving mandated standards used by this or that manufacturer tells you very little about the suitability of the design or build for off shore service.

You didnt address my 2 points.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Greg K

My hat off to you, sir. 220 liters in 49 days over a distance of 4000 nm is a feat, even in those days. But why on earth didn't you stop in Horta where every crew on every boat that came in would have been lining up to buy you a beer or 20.

To be honest I was just to blown away by everything going on.. Birds of Paradise, a super pod of dolphins, a wahale and her calf, Orcas keeping me company for several days, a pair of dolphins hanging round the boat for a couple of days as I drifted becalmex then swimming up to the boat and presenting their new born, doing a circuit round the boat and back to me before swimming away.. more encounters with whales.
No other trip has lived up to that 1st Transat much to my disappointment.

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I have been on this forum a while. This thread could be from the first day I was a member and the only thing that has changed about it are the experts in the discussion.

You mean like this 39 page one from 2009 in which you participated? I'm just browsing through it now and my first impression is that this current thread is somewhat diminished compared to the numerous well supported opinions of experienced cruisers one reads in that old thread.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ats-34218.html

The topic is certainly as pertinent as it was 12 years ago, but I suspect many whose opinions are worth hearing have grown tired of making the same albeit still valid arguments for what criteria to look at when evaluating the desirable and undesirable characteristics of voyaging boats.

Just as the sea does not change, I doubt that such arguments will be any less valuable in the next 12 years. Boats that are poorly designed and built with questionable quality will still be as unsuitable for ocean voyaging as they are now or were 12 years ago. Perhaps even more so.

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by boatman61

To be honest I was just to blown away by everything going on.. Birds of Paradise, a super pod of dolphins, a wahale and her calf, Orcas keeping me company for several days, a pair of dolphins hanging round the boat for a couple of days as I drifted becalmex then swimming up to the boat and presenting their new born, doing a circuit round the boat and back to me before swimming away.. more encounters with whales.
No other trip has lived up to that 1st Transat much to my disappointment.

Yes, I understand. A touch of Motessier's disease is what I call it. That sense that all is right with the world right there. That everything is in balance and the reluctance to break that magic spell. I had it, too, but eventually, reluctantly I did decide to pull into Horta for fear that my irrational desire to keep going was a product of a mind affected by so many days alone at sea. Sadly, never came back for me either, not on the last leg to Spain nor on any other passage since.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Greg K

Yes, I understand. A touch of Motessier's disease is what I call it. That sense that all is right with the world right there. That everything is in balance and the reluctance to break that magic spell. I had it, too, but eventually, reluctantly I did decide to pull into Horta for fear that my irrational desire to keep going was a product of a mind affected by so many days alone at sea. Sadly, never came back for me either, not on the last leg to Spain nor on any other passage since.

I passed quite close to Flores and saw the lights on shore but stopping did not even cross my mind though looking back fresh stores would have been a good idea..
The last 17 days was a daily diet of a handful of red lentils boiled in a cup and a half of water with one chicken stock cube for a soup followed by two teaspoons of condensed milk for dessert.. that was supper, breakfast was water and a couple of pan breads..
Last 5 days to land was filled with sadness.. knew I had to but hated having to.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I passed quite close to Flores and saw the lights on shore but stopping did not even cross my mind though looking back fresh stores would have been a good idea..
The last 17 days was a daily diet of a handful of red lentils boiled in a cup and a half of water with one chicken stock cube for a soup followed by two teaspoons of condensed milk for dessert.. that was supper, breakfast was water and a couple of pan breads..
Last 5 days to land was filled with sadness.. knew I had to but hated having to.

Boatie,

I once heard the sea singing to me - lasted all through my midnight ot 4a.m. watch.

I've desparately wanted to hear that again, but haven't and I suspect I never will - and that makes me more than sad

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Greg K

You mean like this 39 page one from 2009 in which you participated?

Yes it is 100% as useless as that one and the 100s similar since about the topic. But I am glad to see you research the same topic, get the same answers I bet, and take notes.