Jeanneau and Beneteau

[DreaminFred]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Well, I guess I should chime in here as I'm well acquainted with the Bennie 423.

As others have noted, these are French designs, but are Ford built. In other words, they are mass produced. Like any manufacturer, the object is to make a product at the least possible price to ensure a good profit line. For instance, the Bennie has a steel keel, not that there is anything wrong with that.

Note I said " least" not "cheaply". The price point comes when you take a close look at how these boats are built. They are mostly" pre-fabbed". Think Ford assembly lines. By and large, they are good sailing boats. You can't compare a mass produced boat like a Beneteau with a Hallberg-Rassy....that would be like comparing a Ford with a Porsche, but they will both cross oceans without any problem .

Fiberglass boats last forever. There are any number of " used" boats for sale that are priced lower than the Bennie's, etc.

You can't let " price point" be your only standard when boat shopping. A well maintained Bennie would be a better boat that a HR that has been trashed, etc.

I am a firm believer that the market doesn’t reward bad products with high sales numbers and smart/luxury buyers are careful about their purchases.

The car analogy is profoundly flawed because everyone understands it. No boat is an essential purchase (unless you’re a fisher or a shipper). It is a very expensive luxury purchase. A car is a normal necessity whether a Nisan, Ford, Caddy, or Rolls. The difference between these nameplates is more about the customer the manufacturer is trying to attract. I’m certain a used Toyota will be more reliable and take you farther with fewer headaches than a new Jaguar. If you’re buying a new or newer used boat you will be spending FAR MORE than I have ever spent on a car.

As such a boat buyer typically does their due diligence well- asks questions online about their options; travels long distances to see several examples of the model they like; hires a certificated professional to survey the boat, and rigging inspection, engine analysis, and pays to have their intended hauled and splashed.

A boat is a luxury purchase, maintaining a boat is way more expensive and hard work than maintaining any car (even a Jag) and it lives in a much harsher environment than any car. Don’t be deluded that buying a boat is like buying a car- sailing a boat is not like driving a car; living on a boat is not like living in a car. And loving your boat is not like loving your car. Buying a boat is like dating- intoxicating, exciting, sexy and very, very expensive if you miss a big defect. Even more expensive to make second, third or fourth attempts at finding “true love”.

That being said- don’t fall in love until you’ve bought her dinner, asked about her family, met a couple of her friends and asked for maintenance records! Ann Margaret wouldn’t look at me, Rachel Welch wouldn’t even laugh at me. My boat makes me smile as soon as I turn off the engine and hoist the sails on a beautiful piece of water. And that has been true on my $50 Sea Snark, my $3000 M-16, my $5000 O’Day, my $30,000 Pearson and hopefully my $80,000 Beneteau (first date this Tuesday). Then again it’s also been true on a couple boats I chartered and even a couple boats where I was crew!

Sail more, shop enough, but don’t let it make you crazy. Don’t buy one that’s missing a couple front teeth and has crabs!

But there was that gorgeous XJ12 I parked beside in high school. I think I could have loved her.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

As a person that has been to the Hanse , beneteau and HR factories , it’s important to realise that the boat and car manufacturing comparison isn’t apt.

The closet might be comparing beneteau to Ford and HR to Morgan cars.

BMW Porsche etc are mass manufacturers compared to boats. Even high end cars have manufacturing structures on a scale impractical for boats.

The difference between beneteau and HR is largely down to “ labour “ HR builds a tiny number of boats , about 6 side by side in the finishing plant. They deploy craftsman to fabricate most parts and build the boat up piece by piece

You are essentially paying for all the Nordic labour costs baked into a HR boat. It’s why many other “boutique “ boat builders have failed ( after many many years of existence ) primarily because mass produced boats get better and better and produce more boat for the money. ( access to capital and expensive machinery ) Buyers gravitate away from the boutique brands and then they fail

What also works against them , is the element of fashion , beneteau can invest in the technologies to do Things like recessed hatches moulded in windows etc. These technologies are too expensive to implement in lower volume builds. Hence “ boutique “ brands tend to locked into designs that still use older manual orientated techniques and systems. This over time shrinks their market.

New Small volume high end boats are now very thin on the ground as costs and returns mean only larger sizes make sense for these builders to focus on

What’s surprising is that the mass end of the market has survived on the European Continent at all , even as the boutique brands have failed one by one, the wipeout being essentially total in the U.K. ( which surprisingly never developed a large scale yachting builder )

At the end of the day , we’re lucky to have the mass builders , as they allow, via their second hand market , loads of people to acquire decent yachts.

Yes! I concur and agree.

In Finland, the "boutique brands" Baltic Yachts and Nautor/Swan have a hard time turning what they make into profits. Unless they have some creative holding/group arrangements, it seems that both companies have made quite significant losses in the last years. Oy Nautor AB is at -20 M€ aggregate for the last five years, and if this reflects real losses, it's not very sustainable.

The industrial builders, on the other hand, have several economies of scale working to their advantage. And they have figured out a reasonably sustainable business model.

[parachute]

When I was chartering for 10 years the Jenneau had a deeper keel than the Benneteau so it was better upwind

[robert sailor]

Production boats offer very good value in the market place. The larger ones are certainly capable of ocean crossing although 99% of them are used for coastal cruising.

With that said they are also the cheapest sailboats produced so don't kid yourself into thinking that a Beneteau or similar full liner constructed boat is an equal to a boat like an H&R with only the labor cost being the difference.

Surely no one is foolish enough to believe that the cheapest product is also the best product?

Aside from the labor costs these boats are constructed in completely different manners. The H&R and similarly constructed boats are stick built boats and don't lend themselves to high production as the labor force needs to be highly skilled.

Beneteau is a liner built boat and by and large the skills to build these from a workforce point of view is much lower and that in itself keeps costs down.

There will always be a market for high quality sailboats as a certain smaller percentage of buyers want to own high quality.

Stick built boats of high quality will be around for many decades and generations as they can be refitted with comparative ease. That's why you will see immaculate examples of boats like Swans that are well past 50 years old that are in near new condition.

It's highly unlikely that 50 years from now that any liner built boats will still be around, nor should they be as they have cycle limitations that would probably preclude that in the first place.

These are not knocks against liner boats, they in fact do represent good value and are certainly good enough to get the job done for most people but there is a big difference between construction methods between the lower cost liner boats and higher cost stick built boats. Just don't kid yourself into thinking that you can buy equal quality for half the price.

[piloto]

Originally Posted by aisleorwindow

Exactly. I am currently looking and now know exactly what I want, but I simply can't find a decent boat. All of the brokers I've spoken to in the U.S. (and I have spoken to many) are dying for more inventory.

Guys, I have a ‘95 Jeanneau 371 in very good condition, set up for scuba diving (tank holders, storage), watermaker, sails are good (new main a couple of years ago), extra main and Genoa, roller furling headsail and main, bbq on stern, solar and wind generator, all required safety equipment and good ground tackle. Lying St. Croix with mooring available if desired.

[piloto]

Originally Posted by piloto

Guys, I have a ‘95 Jeanneau 371 in very good condition, set up for scuba diving (tank holders, storage), watermaker, sails are good (new main a couple of years ago), extra main and Genoa, roller furling headsail and main, bbq on stern, solar and wind generator, all required safety equipment and good ground tackle. Lying St. Croix with mooring available if desired.

Asking $65k

[wingssail]

robert sailor, it seems like you are making some assumptions about quality and life of some kinds of boats which you think are self evident. Perhaps what is obvious to you is not to everyone else.

Originally Posted by robert sailor

...Stick built boats of high quality will be around for many decades and generations as they can be refitted with comparative ease.

Can you define the quality attributes you see that will make these "stick built" boats last for decades while "liner boats" will not? I don't mean just what's different, I mean why do you consider it higher quality which will extend the life?

It's highly unlikely that 50 years from now that any liner built boats will still be around, nor should they be as they have cycle limitations that would probably preclude that in the first place...
I am interested in the "cycle limitations" which you feel preclude liner boats from lasting 50 years. What cycles are you referring to?

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by wingssail

robert sailor, it seems like you are making some assumptions about quality and life of some kinds of boats which you think are self evident. Perhaps what is obvious to you is not to everyone else.

Hi Wingssail...sure I'll have a short go of it.

Stick built HR....hull is laid up in the mold using a much thicker hull than a liner built boat. The hull has longitudinal stringers formed in the hull for stiffness and the keel support system, rudder support system is also part of the hull. The hull is now structurally ready to be removed from the mold. The deck is installed using adhesive and thru bolts every few inches. It is then glassed together in the interior making it essentially a one piece structure. The main bulkheads are now installed and fiberglassed to the hull and deck. All interior furnishings are now glassed to the hull and deck. All electrical conduits, plumbing etc. are put in place and future access is relatively easy to get at. Engine and accessories are all installed by bringing them into the boat through the main hatch so you also no they can be replaced by the same method. The keel will be made of lead.

Liner built boat....a thinner hull will be laid up in a mold. A liner will be molded containing a floor grid, the galley, the heads and all the bases for interior furniture as well as channels for the main bulkheads. A worker with a large wand will shoot plexus adhesive in designated spots on the hull and the liner will be dropped in place. Once the adhesive has gone off the interior bulkheads are installed in the liner. Engine can be installed and all interior furnishings can be glued or screwed to the liner. The plumbing and electrical are installed between the liner and the hull. The deck has a similar liner. Once the interior is finished the hull and deck are joined. This joint is done by putting a bead of 5200 on the hull and using self tapping screws to bring the two surfaces together of the hull and deck.
The keel is made from cast iron.

There is much more detail that I have left out but this is a general description and might vary a bit between manufacturers but it will give you a general idea.

If a liner built boat is grounded or in an accident and the bond between the liner and hull is detached it's a very serious issue as only the liner is actually attached to the hull.

Cycles....I'm not an expert on CE certification but one of our forum members is and years ago when we were discussing the sailing vessel Cheeky Rafiki, the Beneteau 40 that lost its keel offshore and killed 5 sailors he suggested that the failure might have been due to the fact that the boat had exceeded it's designed lifespan which was based on cycles. Cycles being the back and forth motion of loading and unloading the rig and internal support systems. He gave a number out and unfortunately I don't recall what it was. I do know that Beneteau changed the design of the grid after that accident as it showed just how close they were designing these boats to ultimate failure. The accountants throw nickels around like manhole covers when they are specing some of these boats. That philosophy can be seen in using brass for thru hulls with a design life of 5 years.

Anyways liner built boats do offer very good value in sailboats and with lower prices many more buyers can afford new boats and that's good for the industry. You can row a boat across an ocean and boats like Catalina 27's and Cal 25's have circumnavigated so of course you can sail a liner boat across an ocean.

By the way my guess would be that your boat is stick built.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Hi Wingssail...sure I'll have a short go of it.

Stick built HR....hull is laid up in the mold using a much thicker hull than a liner built boat. The hull has longitudinal stringers formed in the hull for stiffness and the keel support system, rudder support system is also part of the hull. The hull is now structurally ready to be removed from the mold. The deck is installed using adhesive and thru bolts every few inches. It is then glassed together in the interior making it essentially a one piece structure. The main bulkheads are now installed and fiberglassed to the hull and deck. All interior furnishings are now glassed to the hull and deck. All electrical conduits, plumbing etc. are put in place and future access is relatively easy to get at. Engine and accessories are all installed by bringing them into the boat through the main hatch so you also no they can be replaced by the same method. The keel will be made of lead.

Liner built boat....a thinner hull will be laid up in a mold. A liner will be molded containing a floor grid, the galley, the heads and all the bases for interior furniture as well as channels for the main bulkheads. A worker with a large wand will shoot plexus adhesive in designated spots on the hull and the liner will be dropped in place. Once the adhesive has gone off the interior bulkheads are installed in the liner. Engine can be installed and all interior furnishings can be glued or screwed to the liner. The plumbing and electrical are installed between the liner and the hull. The deck has a similar liner. Once the interior is finished the hull and deck are joined. This joint is done by putting a bead of 5200 on the hull and using self tapping screws to bring the two surfaces together of the hull and deck.
The keel is made from cast iron.

There is much more detail that I have left out but this is a general description and might vary a bit between manufacturers but it will give you a general idea.

If a liner built boat is grounded or in an accident and the bond between the liner and hull is detached it's a very serious issue as only the liner is actually attached to the hull.

Cycles....I'm not an expert on CE certification but one of our forum members is and years ago when we were discussing the sailing vessel Cheeky Rafiki, the Beneteau 40 that lost its keel offshore and killed 5 sailors he suggested that the failure might have been due to the fact that the boat had exceeded it's designed lifespan which was based on cycles. Cycles being the back and forth motion of loading and unloading the rig and internal support systems. He gave a number out and unfortunately I don't recall what it was. I do know that Beneteau changed the design of the grid after that accident as it showed just how close they were designing these boats to ultimate failure. The accountants throw nickels around like manhole covers when they are specing some of these boats. That philosophy can be seen in using brass for thru hulls with a design life of 5 years.

Anyways liner built boats do offer very good value in sailboats and with lower prices many more buyers can afford new boats and that's good for the industry. You can row a boat across an ocean and boats like Catalina 27's and Cal 25's have circumnavigated so of course you can sail a liner boat across an ocean.

By the way my guess would be that your boat is stick built.

Thanks for the detailed reply. Of course my own boat was built without a liner though not from a mold. I have not wanted boat with a liner because I wanted easier access to the hull itself.

However, we, (myself and most of us I'd guess) understand the difference in construction of boats with liners and those without. What I was and still am interested in is why boats built without liners are assumed to be better. You gave us one reason: if a grounding or accident breaks the bond between the hull and liner. I understand that but I am not sure that means it is worse.

What would be interesting is the position that builders such as Beneteau take on their construction methods, are there not advantages? For instance, isn't a hull and liner, connected together, similar to a double skin cored construction which is known to be stiffer than a thick single skin?

I don't know, I'm inclined to agree with your assessment, I just don't like to go along with universally accepted assumptions that nobody questions.

[Zzmeyer]

Cheeki Rafiki is the go to Beneteau bashing example. A court found that the owner was criminally liable, not Beneteau for the failure. On the other hand, Oyster, went through reorganization because of a keel failure due either to design or construction flaws.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Zzmeyer

Cheeki Rafiki is the go to Beneteau bashing example. A court found that the owner was criminally liable, not Beneteau for the failure. On the other hand, Oyster, went through reorganization because of a keel failure due either to design or construction flaws.

Hmm. CR had been repeatedly run hard aground during her charter life and was repaired at least once, before running aground again. Doug chartered CR from the yachts owner part way through her life.

Doug was found not guilty of manslaughter by gross negligence but guilt of failing to operate a vessel in a safe manner. This was a bit of a shock because Doug had previously built a business based on high standards in the chartering and instructing marine courses. I worked occasionally for a rival business which shared the same stretch of Southampton Water.

Pete

[Wilyum]

Originally Posted by bigskyrad

We've owned three Beneteaus, most recently a 2013 Oceanis 45'. Four years ago we downsized and purchased a Tartan 3700 built in 2001. The Beneteaus are brilliantly designed and engineered, and the basic quality of the hulls is good. However, they are built for the mass market, and therefore to a "price point." The hardware is just not the highest quality. The woodwork is thin veneers, not solid wood. Subsystems are not necessarily the highest quality. Nothing on a Beneteau is bad, but being in the Tartan one does feel and see the difference in building to a higher standard.

I assume the Tartan was more comfortable on passage, could you give us a comparison?

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Thanks for the detailed reply. Of course my own boat was built without a liner though not from a mold. I have not wanted boat with a liner because I wanted easier access to the hull itself.

However, we, (myself and most of us I'd guess) understand the difference in construction of boats with liners and those without. What I was and still am interested in is why boats built without liners are assumed to be better. You gave us one reason: if a grounding or accident breaks the bond between the hull and liner. I understand that but I am not sure that means it is worse.

What would be interesting is the position that builders such as Beneteau take on their construction methods, are there not advantages? For instance, isn't a hull and liner, connected together, similar to a double skin cored construction which is known to be stiffer than a thick single skin?

I don't know, I'm inclined to agree with your assessment, I just don't like to go along with universally accepted assumptions that nobody questions.

I should have also mentioned that I'm a bit bias against liner boats as I had one years ago before I even knew the difference between different types of construction.
It was a cruiser/racer and I raced it a couple of times a week during the seaso.
One day when I wasnt paying proper attention I gave it a bit of a hard landing against the dock...I didn't put any Mark's in the hull and didn't give it a second thought. A few days later when I arrived to go racing the crew suggested I tighten up the rig as the shrouds were on the slack side. I looked it over and couldn't figure out what was going on but I knew enough not to just start tightening the rig. No racing that day and I had a local boat builder come by the next day. He advised me that I had broken the liner from the hull
and it would need to be repaired. He told me that he could repair the obvious damage but there were no guarantees on the repair because it might have extended further and he wanted no part of tearing it apart.
That was my introduction to ,iner boats and I have avoided them ever sense.

I think for the average sailor the new high production boats really represent great value and the designs are also very cool and women love them which is a bonus..

As to your question on core which is a good one...cored hulls are very strong because they behave like a beam...when you try and bend them the second skin goes into tension..
I doubt a liner boat reacts in the same way as the space is much greater between the skins and the coring is air but liner built boats can be similar in strength to a single skin hull. The yard guys have to be very careful on where they locate the pads on liner boats as if they are not overtop a bulkhead you will see the large dimple created by the hull flexing in. Its wise for owners to attend and make sure the pads are placed properly.
And finally some cruiser friends had their 46 ft Beneteau trucked across the country during the covid season. When they were in the destination marina they were lifting the floors to store some stuff and found the floor structure has broken loose in a couple of areas....I have no idea what caused it or even if there was a grounding that they kept quiet about but they have a really big bill coming up.

[sandy stone]

Originally Posted by Zzmeyer

Cheeki Rafiki is the go to Beneteau bashing example. A court found that the owner was criminally liable, not Beneteau for the failure. On the other hand, Oyster, went through reorganization because of a keel failure due either to design or construction flaws.

And another data point, pulled from SA -

"Try as they might, Oyster just seems to have gotten much wrong, especially when it comes to building high quality boats. According to IBI News, In what the company called a “precautionary measure”, British builder Oyster Yachts Ltd confirmed that it is surveying (nine) of the 885 models built by Oyster Marine Ltd to assess their condition after extensive world cruising. Commercial director Paul Adamson said.

Apparently cracks have been identified in internal sub structure. More as we get it"

[robert sailor]

One of the interesting things about the CE approval ratings is that they were written by the high production sailboat industry and adopted by the government. So the manufacturers wrote their own rule book.

That allowed them to control costs. It also allowed them not to be sued as all they have to do is show that the vessel was built to the CE ratings and they are protected. Lawyers go after anyone that's involved, has a few bucks and might be liable. I don't think you will see a list of any length of boat manufacturers that have been successfully sued for negligence in the EU.

That aside an independent group studied other Beneteau 40 sailboats of the same design and found a half dozen or so other boats that had the floor grid supporting the keel with structural defects that would likely over time have failed so it was not a one off, it was a design that was not adequate however it met the CE ratings when it was manufactured and therefore the builder was off the hook. The CE was modified after this accident and the floor grids were built stronger on future boats.

I'm not into bad mouthing other peoples boats and there are some of these new high production boats that are drop dead gorgeous and they sail like witches and I could easily see owning one myself.....however there is nothing wrong with educated yourself.