What would you do?

[lesterbutch]

I had one Suface right begside us off New London CT many years ago. We were on the crest of about a 25-30 wave and he was in the trough yelling at me too stand off! I was fighting too clear the area, so I yelled back at him that I thought I could land on his deck and he could give me ride in. I cleared down off the crest the other way so I never heard what he was screaming. I never figured out why he was surfacing so close in to Ledge light.

[hellosailor]

"something about back-to-back yellow flairs signalling a sub prepping to surface (?)"
Rob, submarines launch Polaris missiles into the air. They rarely make that kind of commitment to launch a FLARE.
Submarine signals will normally be made by releasing a bouy or smoke. If there is submarine activity (a base or channel) in your area, then the USCG LNTM#1 should cover the relevant colors and meanings every year.
Simplified version? If you see ANY smoke on the water, and it isn't a Deep Purple concert, GTF out of the way and call it in to someone. It might be a gray lady down, or it might mean "torpedo test firing imminent". Either way, there's not much you can do.
If it is a buoy, there should be instructions and a phone handset on it. If they're not in English....

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by 30yearslater

All these geniuses calling me stupid. When did sailors become such sissies that they need to rely on a radio of questionable worth. What were they thinking taking the clipper ships around the great capes without
VHF. I'm sure glad the Brits, Spaniards, French and everyone else didn't concern themselves with crying for help every time $hit hit the fan. Did you Einstein's read the post or hop to an inaccurate conclusion? There are no ORANGE Solas parachute flares. The color is RED. As to cell coverage, there is continuous coverage on Lake Ontario.

In certain conditions a white flare can appear orange.. its called refraction. If I see a flare of any colour at sea, or smoke I tend to alter course.. what's a few hours.
Did not notice you saying you were cruising a puddle..

[Dave22q]

What you do is not optional. It is mandatory. You contact the CG by any means available, start your engine and head for the location. When relieved by the authorities you resume course and forget it.
I agree with those who state not having VHF is reckless. I also think seeing orange knowing COREGS call for red is no excuse to ignore a signal. Frightened people might easily grab the wrong flares. The decision to ignore is not properly yours.

[zedpassway]

I agreed with what everyone said, and think you did right to report it to the Coasties. You don't really have a whole lot of choice if it doesn't put you in danger.

But you also have to be sure that by assisting them you are not putting yourself in danger. Do You have enough gasoline to get out 15 miles and then back again? Are the weather conditions deteriorating and you are in for Small Craft warnings and you are in a small craft? You are not required to put your own circumstance in danger and in need of the USCG too.

You do need a vhf but if they are 15 miles away its doubtful that you could reach those in distress with a portable, and maybe not the 10 mile on my base station model. Where I sail, the USCG actually prefers being contacted by cell phone. In fact the last time I was rescued by them(the only time by the way), the first thing they asked when I finally reached them on a portable VHF was, "You don't have a function cell phone by any chance?" Unfortunately, I did not, and no one in may party did.

[CaptFrankM]

Actually, 30years, while I wouldn't use the term "stupid," I would say "irresponsible." While it may be true that you can contact the Coast Guard from anywhere on Lake Ontario by cell phone, the simple answer is that cell phones are point-to-point communications. When you call the Coast Guard on a cell phone, no one but the Coast Guard (and maybe the NSA) knows about your call.

On the other hand, had you had a VHF radio available, calling the Coast GUard with your report might have notified any other vessel in the area about the situation. Perhaps there was no other vessel in the area - but perhaps there was and they simply didn't see the flares you did. Had they heard the report of a possible vessel in distress, along with your location and relative bearing, they may have been able to at least confirm the issue, if not provide assistance. They could have contacted you for more information. The scenario might have been completely different. In fact, I would be willing to bet that the first thing that the Coast Guard did, upon receiving your call, was to issue a pan-pan over the VHF radio for more info from other boats - a call you would never know about.

As to the idea that VHF is "unreliable" or that clipper ships didn't use them - that is so specious that it is really not worth replying. VHF radios are no more nor less reliable than cell phones and to argue that clipper ships didn't have something so modern boats can ignore them, well - that's a stretch.

[Cadence]

I had the same boat as you. VHF was the only piece of electronics I had back then.
Look at the other side of the coin. If you needed help a radio maybe better than a cell phone unless your close to shore and a tower. That lake water is colder than hell.

[W3GAC]

Ran into a similar situation from St Thomas to Chesapeake about 10 yrs ago. We were motorsailing on a straight line course at about 1am when I saw a similar flare while we were about 250 miles from Bermuda, US coastline and got the heading and with the estimated height of a cheap 'up & down' 300' flare and my phone calculator, estimated its distance. Before changing course (sails were up)I called on VHF (agree with other post... you should never be out on water without a VHF or two). Thought I might have heard one very weak signal , but no answer after repeated calls. Being an amateur radio guy with both ham and marine HF SSB/ insulated backstay, I picked the likely best HF marine band and called Coast Guard Norfolk... about 250 miles away. Good signals and described the situation, including we had been becalmed and had been running for four days on engine power and had eaten up much of our extra fuel... AND NEEDED TO GET TO BERMUDA BEFORE A BIG FORECASTED STORM. Nonetheless, I was 'REMANDED TO PROCEED TO THE LIKELY FLARE AREA AND CONDUCT A REASONABLE SEARCH AND REPORT BACK. With a crew of three I was very concerned about having enough fuel/ time to still reach Bermuda before our weather router's projected very strong storm arrival, but complied. We arrived at the flare area I calculated around 4am, calling on VHF the whole way with no response, used our Q-beam 500,000 lumen spot light to look for flotsam or oil slick. Nothing found. Called CG back reporting nothing found and that we HAD TO abandon search and make Bermuda or they may have to rescue us. We were released. We arrived Bermuda about 4 hours before 24 hours of 50+ kts winds. We ventured over the to traditional cruiser's breakfast restaurant and as I walked in I heard 'Bob!... boy am I glad to see you!' As I heard 'the rest of the story' of the flare... I began to turn white. Friend, Joe, also was was out there and saw the flare and got his bearing. He heard my VHF transmissions including my boat name & coordinates and bearing to flare, which he was able to plot and with his bearing... he had a 'X' marks the spot and proceeded directly there. He said he tried to answer me but his VHF HT battery died, which is what that weak signal I thought I heard was. As he got close he saw some flicking lights, changed course to them. As he approached, he could make out two open cockpit boats, with 55 gal barrels of fuel and 'white bags' being transferred from one boat to the other. Then the lights turned toward him! He realized he had driven up to a drug cargo transfer and he might be done for. He obviously couldn't out run them, so he decided to just play dump. He hollered 'I saw your flare... looks like all is OK... turned into the wind put up his sails and picked a sailable heading and 'speeded away'. Once out of sight he said he came about and continued on hoping they either didn't care or couldn't find him in the dark. Which ever it was, he made it to Bermuda and we both are alive to pass on our account, which will only add to the 'what would you do?' question. But I only had to think... what it that was me and my family out there that was sinking after hitting a merged object or a fire shooting up a distress flare. What would I like a responsible boaters seeing what may be our last flare go up and down? That what I think every boater should do.

Yes you should be cautious approaching and have a plan to assess the situation from afar/ and a means to protect yourself with what you have on-board, including blinding wasp spray (shoots 25' with disabling eye pain) and/ or your flare gun (and all those years of expired 12ga flares at the ready.

By the way, when we leave our boat in unfamiliar/ new ports, especially if returning after dark, we both wear fanny packs containing wasp spray, special flashlights and heavy duty zip-ties. The normal looking and working 6" flashlight, if confronted by those wishing to harm you can surprise/ totally disable them by simply touching the front of the flashlight to any part of their body and squeezing a recessed red button that energizes its powerful stun gun capability. It can generate a 2" spark across its lens which will easily penetrate any clothing/ heavy jacket and knock them to the ground disabled long enough to secure their hands behind their back and their feet together with the zip-ties. Return to boat / notify marina/ other boaters/ authorities. If I was concerned for any reason about unauthorized boarding of our boat at anchor or dock, we carry a big bag of thumb tacks to spread liberally out at logical boarding locations, cockpit, a la tricks of old. Picking them up in morning is easy... turn a baggie inside out, put a strong magnet on now outside and sweep the area. Once all are in the bag, turn the bag back to normal and pull your magnet away. Seal/ stow bag.

[W3GAC]

Oh.... by the way... way did the drug dealers shoot off a flare? Best we can figure, they couldn't find each other with whatever GPS device they were using and one of them shot up a flare...

[a64pilot]

Druggies are not necessarily the most intelligent people, or the best mariners

[MarkJ]

The original poster is in Lake Ontario so a phone is probably fine.

I doubt if the flare was 15nms away.

He did right to call the Coast Guard.

He should have headed towards the Flares position unless conditions would endanger his boat/crew (well pointed out Zeehag!)

People who shoot 2 Flares are dying. There's times a mans gotta do what a mans do.


Mark

[44'cruisingcat]

The first post never mentioned Lake Ontario.

There are places with no cellphone coverage where VHF works.

[Djarraluda]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

The first post never mentioned Lake Ontario.

There are places with no cellphone coverage where VHF works.

And equally, there are many places where mobile phone coverage exists but VHF does not get response.
If there is no legal requirement for VHF, why is it considered irresponsible/stupid and so forth. Of course it is not
Yes, as well noted SOLAS requires us to attempt to render assistance, but at that distance, would 2 minutes make any difference - alter course and then call, or call before altering course?
Exam question once asked: You are on your boat, off the coast and someone falls overboard, what are your actions:
OK, we all go to answer "Point", "Call out Man-Overboard", "Engine out of gear" etc ....... but if I am sailing and am the only other person on-board, guess what, my actions would not include those 3. (Yes, I hate multiple choice exams, especially when set by lazy, ill-informed clerks who read the book but do not know the subject!
Horses for courses! please establish the parameters before criticising actions.
Roger

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Djarraluda

You are on your boat, off the coast and someone falls overboard, what are your actions:

Heave a massive sigh of relief..

[Seas the Day]

Originally Posted by 30yearslater

All these geniuses calling me stupid.

You pose a very good question. For those of us who have never been in such a situation it is thought provoking. I can understand your sense of outrage.

In considering this situation I would contact the local CG or like, appraise them and advise on my capability then tell them I will standby for instructions. This puts the responsibility for S&R in the hands of the CG. You become a willing slave to their operational instructions. I would want a confirmation from them within say 10 minutes.

Another consideration is that if you had VHF you could easily call up and enquire if anyone was close to the source of the flares. The big benefit of VHF is its ability to connect to everyone on the water, unlike a cell.

At the end of the day the CG are experts at this, not you.