WE'RE RACING!!!!!!

[Benz]

Originally Posted by danstanford

I can imagine that most of us would steer away from an obvious race if we could see it long before Colregs became relevant. The answer to your question is that every foot through the water is relevant to the result of the race and if one of the boats needs to put in an unwanted tack they are at a disadvantage to those who did not.

That doesn't give them the right to expect or demand that someone give way who is not required by COLREGS to do so, nor to force them to take action to avoid collision by refusing to do their duty. Racing is silly and unnecessary to begin with: it's nothing but a game, and they should be sporting enough to take any conditions and traffic they meet with good grace instead of being jerks.
Who cares if they lose a race because they had to tack? What exactly is lost when some racer doesn't win? Pride? Status? a bet? Who cares?

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by leboyd

I'm no COLREGS expert by a long, long shot, but isn't "right of way" really just a suggestion? I seemed to recall reading several CF threads where the captain of XYZ boat (or even ships) were skinned and tarred for running into or being hit by another boat because, well, there's only one real "right of way" rule and that is the other boat always has the "right of way" because all "rules" go out the window and you have the responsibility to avoid any collision - full stop.

Is that correct (serious question, as I'm not an expert)?

My understanding is that how violations are treated depends on the jurisdiction. In Europe they occasionally sanction vessels that misbehave but aren’t involved in a collision, Germany especially.

In the US I don’t think there is as much interest in enforcement like a traffic cop unless there is a collision or there are repeated problems. That’s why the sponsoring YC should be contacted, they police their own so the USCG doesn’t step in and start dictating areas that racers can’t go.

[Tetepare]

OMG typical CF run on rubbish.

“I’m racing” means just that. It’s windy and he yelled to ensure you could hear him. Give him a break.

Now, Jim’s anecdote “I’m racing, A hole” is completely different. That’s someone asking you to ruin their day and show them who’s in charge.

It’s semantics and ethics all rolled into one word.

Bravado aside, what’s it hurt to give way? I do it all the time: for newbies, for twits, for racers. Of course I’m right. If I exercised my Highway rights over the past forty years I could have a pile of bodies with my name on them. Heck, I bet I could go out right now and be home with a legal T bone and insurance check in 30 minutes.

Sometimes it’s just OK to back off. When they are an A Hole, it’s really really tough, but at the end of they day you back off and you’ll actually have less stress. Take it from me, you can only teach so many lessons before you burn out and become an A Hole too. As I counseled my kid, you can be right or you can be happy. Pick one.

[caradow]

Sounds to me that the racer was somewhat inexperienced and waited too long to contact the obstructing boat.
Racing a crewed boat takes a lot of coordination within the crew. Over my 30 + years of racing as a skipper I always appointed one person on the rail to watch out for boats up ahead. With plenty of time you simply yell to the approaching boat that you are indeed racing and would they please give us room and a thank you and friendly wave soon follows. Never has anyone in a sailboat refused. Now in windy conditions as a helmsman I can usually tell ahead of time trouble is up ahead and I will alter course accordingly but done in early time where your helm is not an erratic turn. I doubt that small adjustment would alter the outcome of a race in the majority of time yet it is possible.
The bigger problem that I have faced is someone sitting on your air by being in their wind shadow. Even some racers do not appreciate the disadvantage of being in someones wind shadow.
As far as the use of vulgarities the racing rules specifically address this so simply call the race committee on VHF 16 and if they are doing their job that boat will be disqualified.
I will say the only really tense time I have had with a non-racer was during a J-35 one design event in LIS when a fishing boat was anchored by one our marks and I guess I came too close to her because she picked up a Blue Fish and threw it at us and as the bloody fish ran down my mainsail myself and crew where laughing so hard that I almost hit the mark.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Benz

I'm a little surprised how many people here think that a possibly shorthanded cruising boat going about its business on a starboard tack would be decent to change course for highly maneuverable, fully crewed racing boats who pride themselves on how well they can turn and wheel, and who are burdened by the rules governing safety at sea to give way.
If enough people act this way, it perpetuates the racing idiot's sense of privilege, and their outrage when someone sharing the same water follows the rules. What's the point of COLREGS if no one follows them?

Originally Posted by Benz

That doesn't give them the right to expect or demand that someone give way who is not required by COLREGS to do so, nor to force them to take action to avoid collision by refusing to do their duty. Racing is silly and unnecessary to begin with: it's nothing but a game, and they should be sporting enough to take any conditions and traffic they meet with good grace instead of being jerks.
Who cares if they lose a race because they had to tack? What exactly is lost when some racer doesn't win? Pride? Status? a bet? Who cares?

Wow Benz, Such hate. You must have gotten really burned when you tried it.

Sure racing is unnessary. So is baseball. But racers generally are not idiots. Nobody I know would make the hail which OP heard. Some dumb crew member maybe or an idiot skipper (there are some of them, and some idiot cruisers too I would guess) but not the people in racing that I know. If you decide that because of that all racers are idiots then it's on you bud.

So let's get it straight: Racing boats are required to give way to non-racing boats according to Colregs and they know it. When we are racing on port tack any boat on starboard tack is an obstacle and we have to figure out how best to avoid them without getting into a dangerous situation and hopefully without losing ground. We don't get angry, we don't shout, we just figure out how to best get past him.

And if I am not racing I try not to mess with race boats but some people are oblivious, or for whatever reason, they continue on their way into the path of a racing boat. It's OK. It's their right. Live and let live. There is no reason for either side to get angry.

As for interfering with commercial vessels, in traffic zones or otherwise, I think that all racing organizations have strict rules forbidding that. Nobody should do it and when they do the commercial vessels have every right and often do report the sailboat to the race organizations. In the US races have to be permitted by the USCG and the notice of the event is published to the commercial vessels. If some sailboat violates that the commercial vessel can report it to the race organization and the racing sailboat will be disqualified, sometimes banned.

But cruisers with a "thing" for racing sometimes may view a normal traffic situation as "playing tag" and think it was dangerous. Maybe it wasn't as bad as it looked. Did the commercial traffic sound a horn?

Anyhow, chill.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by caradow

S... Over my 30 + years of racing as a skipper I always appointed one person on the rail to watch out for boats up ahead. With plenty of time you simply yell to the approaching boat that you are indeed racing and would they please give us room and a thank you and friendly wave soon follows. Never has anyone in a sailboat refused...

I have NEVER asked a non-racing vessel, who is a stand-on vessel, to give me room, even politely.

And if they are the give way vessel I might announce myself, but if it looks like they don't have the capability or knowledge, or skills, to respond, I just deal with it.

Unless it's a charging powerboat. Then I might yell. Unfortunately that's a waste of time because they won't likely hear me over the sound of their engines, then I might shake my fist, but usually they aren't looking either. Then I get out of the way.

One thing I will say, if there is a situation where people yell or get angry it usually is upsetting to the point that it ruins the race. Your focus is gone, everybody on the boat wants to talk about it, and you feel ashamed that you let it get to you and it takes ages for the rage and adrenalin to go away. Just chill, it's much better.

[MC2019]

is what it is

[Jim Cate]

One thing to note: racers are comfortable with much closer passing than most non-racers, and have (usually) the skills to get away with it without contact. They do it all the time with other racing vessels, but to the hapless cruiser it looks like a collision is sure to happen. It may just scare the crap out of them, but also it may cause a frightened skipper to do some unexpected maneuver and in fact CAUSE a collision.

I suspect that such events are the root of a lot of the animosity between racers and non-racers on the water.

Jim

[pete c]

I see a number of comments about how the racer should have hailed me on VHF.

Kinda hard, when the other guy doesn't have his radio on.

Is this a faux pas?

As I have already said, I'm a rookie at this big (relatively) sailboat sailing thing. Is having a monitored VHF a requirement, or just a good idea? This is not my boat. My friend, who is an experienced sailor made no mention of radio use in the few times we've been out.

Guess I need to add "monitor CH 16" to my list of lessons learned here, in addition to assessing approaching vessels to figure out if they are racing. Up to this point my main way of recognizing racers has been when I see numerous boats close together who appear to be racing. I need to recognize that sometimes racers will get considerable distance between them or they may be racing a clock where the racers are purposely staggered.

That would likely make sense if the race crosses a busy inlet.

What would make more sense is not racing across such a place.

[rslifkin]

You're not required to have a VHF at all on a recreational boat in the US. But if you have one, it's required to be on and monitoring channel 16 whenever you're underway and not using it for something else. It's a good idea regardless, as it can keep you more aware of things going on around you that may impact what you're doing.

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by Benz

That doesn't give them the right to expect or demand that someone give way who is not required by COLREGS to do so, nor to force them to take action to avoid collision by refusing to do their duty. Racing is silly and unnecessary to begin with: it's nothing but a game, and they should be sporting enough to take any conditions and traffic they meet with good grace instead of being jerks.
Who cares if they lose a race because they had to tack? What exactly is lost when some racer doesn't win? Pride? Status? a bet? Who cares?

You are right Ben, it does not give them the right to demand you give them room.

You are also right, I suppose, that racing along with so many things we do that give us joy is unnecessary. I would submit that cruising is also unnecessary but that is no reason to bash it or anything else for that matter.

Once again, racing is not a valid excuse to treat others badly nor to expect special treatment on the water.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by danstanford

You are right Ben, it does not give them the right to demand you give them room.

You are also right, I suppose, that racing along with so many things we do that give us joy is unnecessary. I would submit that cruising is also unnecessary but that is no reason to bash it or anything else for that matter.

Once again, racing is not a valid excuse to treat others badly nor to expect special treatment on the water.

The thing is many racers get too caught up in it.

Racing and winning is priority number one.

You'd almost have to see these folks at the dock., beach, on the water etc going over their boat setup, giving crew instructions, checking tides and course, etc, etc.

I've even seen guys adjusting diamond wire tension on the water between races for better mast prebend as conditions had changed.

Then there are those racers that pull their boat after the race so the bottom stays clean and no water absorption occurs.

It can be taken to the nth degree especially if you lose a position by a boat length of two and finish 2nd or 3rd instead of first.

You then go over everything. Was my main sheeted maybe an inch or two too much, wrong batten choice, too much time spent in opposing current as compared to the competition, bad sail trim by a crew member, etc

It can get real crazy .......

Then throw in the guy out simply having a day sail or cruising not in any particular hurry but wants to force his "rights?!"

This is bound to cause some problems.

As an ex hard core racer I give them all the room they need

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by pete c

I see a number of comments about how the racer should have hailed me on VHF.

Kinda hard, when the other guy doesn't have his radio on.

Is this a faux pas?

As I have already said, I'm a rookie at this big (relatively) sailboat sailing thing. Is having a monitored VHF a requirement, or just a good idea? This is not my boat. My friend, who is an experienced sailor made no mention of radio use in the few times we've been out.

Guess I need to add "monitor CH 16" to my list of lessons learned here, in addition to assessing approaching vessels to figure out if they are racing. Up to this point my main way of recognizing racers has been when I see numerous boats close together who appear to be racing. I need to recognize that sometimes racers will get considerable distance between them or they may be racing a clock where the racers are purposely staggered.

That would likely make sense if the race crosses a busy inlet.

What would make more sense is not racing across such a place.

In the first place it is not universal that racing boats carry or monitor VHF radios. Further, the race organization might use a different channel for race communications; the boats might not be on channel 16. We usually put our radio on dual watch, but the level of traffic would be disrupting to the race boat's crew so we keep the radio below deck where only one person near the companionway can hear it.

The suggestion to hail on the radio, or use a horn, or visual signals (flags) is really not practical and not necessary. On a boat racing the entire focus is on the race, making the boat go fast, concentrating on steering, wind shifts, etc. They don't want any distraction or anything that detracts from that concentration. And, the need to make contact with another vessel isn't usually clear until the vessels are quite close. You see a boat coming and it is usually not clear whether or not they will cross. When it is clear, at that point voice communication always adequate.

If you imagine the following situation:

Someone, usually a sail trimmer, says to skipper, "Looks like we're on a collision course."

Skipper answers, "Here take the radio and call him."

Crew, "Call him what, what do I say?"

Skipper, "Oh never mind, give me the radio back."

By this time the closing situation would be very near, and the concentration of the boat is already disturbed. If there is a real emergency, then of course, that's what you have to do. But in the situation described by the OP, it isn't needed.

But for the non-racing boat: You don't need to know if a boat is racing or not. Sail your boat and follow Colregs. You have no obligation to make special concession for them. If you do know, and want to give them more space, fine, but it is not required. Just sail your boat.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Anyhow, chill.

Unless they're on a closed course, shouldn't racing boats be expected to "chill" when they're give way to another vessel that just happens to be out there?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Unless they're on a closed course, shouldn't racing boats be expected to "chill" when they're give way to another vessel that just happens to be out there?

Absolutely, That's what I've been saying.

For the racer: There is no reason to and lots of good reasons not for a racing skipper (or any of their crew) to get angry or upset when they encounter a non-racing boat. Yes, they should (and I think most do) just deal with the other boat as an obstacle and get on with their race. Just Chill out about it.

For the Non-Racer: Understand that Colregs apply to you and the racers you encounter. You have no obligation to clear a way for them simply because they are racing. You don't even need to study the other boat to see if it is racing; it doesn't matter. As for people who are irritated at racers just out of some twisted principle, they need to chill out too.

Closed course racing? There isn't much of that outside of some situations where USCG or other authorities close off an area due to a marine event, such as a race. Then you should not go there unless you are participating in that event.