Uncontrollable pointing into the wind in a minor blow

[thomm225]

Every gust my boat "sees" causes it to turn into the wind probably due to the crazy long boom of the older designs which causes quite a bit of weather helm

I sort of enjoy watching the autopilot deal with it. Even on Sunday when I day sailed in winds from 5-12 knots it would do this. When I was steering I'd anticipate and turn off the wind just a bit before the gust hit

All the above for close hauled sailing.

Hopefully since you were on a beam reach you had the main sheet eased a bit or the traveler down some otherwise most any sailboat is going to turn more toward the wind and depending on wind speed correcting by steering may or may not be possible.

It's still sort of weird though if you are sailing the way you normally would on a beam reach and this happens unless the Catalina 315 just sails a whole lot differently than your boat with more power in the main.

Btw, looks like the boom on the Sabre 34 is 10.8' while the boom on the Catalina 315 is 13.75'!!!

I was sailing downwind a few weeks back with gusts to 29 knots and I had just the jib up. Most of a 120% jib was unfurled and the furler was jammed.

Wind was on the stern to starboard quarter and when I'd get a big gust the boat would try to turn to windward hard but most times the autopilot could handle it. If I'd had a choice, I would have furled in more jib

[Alex_V]

You are absolutely correct, my personal Sabre 34 has a much shorter boom, and is currently setup with a big Genoa. My pervious boat was an older Catalina 27, but it sailed in alot of ways similar to what I have now.

I was sailing my friends boat and I was, still am, rather puzzled at its behavior. I don't think of a 15 knot gust as much at all, but it was doing crazy things. At 10 knot steady wind it was perfectly balanced, sailing with one finger on a wheel. A tiny gust and you are pointed at the wind, and it didn't matter how much you try to fight the wheel.

What I gathered is to try a much tighter outhaul, and if that doesn't fix things then try to ease on the backstay.

I appreciate all the comments and suggestions.

[scotty c-m]

Did you ease the traveler down? That usually takes care of rounding up on my Catalina. And yes, I also tighten the out-haul in heavier winds.

[Alex_V]

Originally Posted by scotty c-m

Did you ease the traveler down? That usually takes care of rounding up on my Catalina. And yes, I also tighten the out-haul in heavier winds.

Yes, traveller was setup for a broad reach that I was on. Boom was nicely out and matching the Genoa angle nicely. I was behind the helm and the traveller lines were on top of the cockpit. Before I can get to them, I was already pointed into the wind. It was near instant with no amount of steering input was going to keep boat on its track. I had plenty of water around me, and no traffic, but I can see where this crap would of been dangerous in tight spaces or in close proximity to other vessels.

[scallowayuk]

Originally Posted by Alex_V

I can't say for sure what size Genoa it was, but it was not a large one. In fact it was rather small compared to what I am usually used to. Barely any overlap.

have you tried a reef in the main,

[Alex_V]

Originally Posted by scallowayuk

have you tried a reef in the main,

Didn't even cross my mind. I never reefed a boat unless it's close to 30 knots.

[guyrj33]

The old main that came with our Pearson 10M E=11, was old and stretched out with way too much draft that couldn't be flattened out. That sail would round the boat up every time.
I now have a full battened main and I also reef the main earlier now. The hull shape of the 10M accentuates the tendency to round up. I have a skeg hung rudder that's really hard to stall.
If the Catalina has a narrow spade it could be much easier to stall.
So the combination of too much main, too much draft and a spade rudder could leave you with a boat that is easily overpowered and rounds up easily when overpowered.

[DEAN2140]

Originally Posted by daletournier

. It's more the big Genoa dragging the boat over resulting in the boat rounding up as its heeling. I don't fully understand the reasons, but I've experienced it and seen it on other boats.

The curved shape of the hull when heeled will cause the boat to turn up even with an under powered main. Get rid of the Genoa. Another possibility is that the rudder is too small. Check with other owners to see if they have the same problem.

[olddog57]

the force exerted by sail is proportionsl to the square of the wind speed
this means the 15kn gust results in 2.25 higher heeling momentum comparing to 10kn wind. Even more then 2.25, but let's leave this out of consideration.
So, if your sails were well ajusted and the boat perfectly balanced in 10kn, she had to heel at 15kn gust quite considerably. And heel causes the momentum which turns the boat into the wind. After the boat pointed to the wind, the sail trim unchanged, she has to right herself.
Maybe everything happened so fast, you just did not pay attention (wrestling the wheel) at that short heeling seeconds?

[DEAN2140]

" if that doesn't fix things then try to ease on the backstay. "

I appreciate all the comments and suggestions.[/QUOTE]

You should TIGHTEN the backstay. This will flatten the main thus depowering it.

[JD-Odyssey]

Just out of curiosity, are the keels of the two boats similar (winged?). There are dynamics below the water as well as above.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Alex_V

Yes, traveller was setup for a broad reach that I was on. Boom was nicely out and matching the Genoa angle nicely. I was behind the helm and the traveller lines were on top of the cockpit. Before I can get to them, I was already pointed into the wind. It was near instant with no amount of steering input was going to keep boat on its track. I had plenty of water around me, and no traffic, but I can see where this crap would of been dangerous in tight spaces or in close proximity to other vessels.

This is the part that we need to keep referring to. There are reasons of course for a boat to round up, but the lack of helm response is the issue here. Just so we are clear the boat rounds up, uncontrollably, and then BEFORE it comes about, you are able to regain control and head off, is that correct? Is it happening on both tacks? It doesn't sound like the rudder is stalling. All I got right now is the quadrant is slipping on the rudder stock, but that is probably unlikely. Can you make a video next time?

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by JD-Odyssey

Just out of curiosity, are the keels of the two boats similar (winged?). There are dynamics below the water as well as above.

Interesting. I don't have experience with this though. If it is the shoal drafted model with the wing, could turbulence off the wing in some way at that particular speed cause the rudder to stall? Seem's quite a stretch, but just taking stabs at it! Who else has a boat like this???

[barnakiel]

Three things come to mind immediately:


- the boat has a fault (by design or by set up) e.g. the mast is placed wrongly,


or


- in a very sudden gust, the SA center shifts (it does) but the boat is slow to accelerate and does not shift its CLR quick enough, this happens in tubs that will veer but not accelerate, this will also happen with severely fouled hulls,



or



- the rudder blade (or keel foil, less likely) is warped, too small, or otherwise prone to not providing adequate control.


Start with asking other owners of same design to eliminate class / design generic factors. Then look at the hull and rudder (e.g. the keel may be misaligned in some boats, warped rudders happen too).


If al else is fine, look at sail shape / set up and trim. E.g. a baggy main or a main with twisted leech tape are known to build quite some extra helm.


You are right to assume something is off as a well designed and trimmed boat will build only minimal (still noticeable) extra helm as she accelerates in a gust, and then she will balance out again.


Poorly designed hulls will also build uncontrollable helm when heeled. But this does not seem to be your case.



Cheers,
b.

[barnakiel]

BTW mentioned above 'too long' or very long boom, does not add weather helm, when the boat is properly designed.


On a well cut and set main, it is the fore part of the main, close to the mast, that dictates the overall forces. Longish booms can catch waves but, when well designed, cause little extra wx helm.



The longer boom is unlikely to cause too much helm, a baggy old main does though.



And hulls with unbalanced wet shape when heeled are probably second most common reason.


b.