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jbinbi · 30-06-2023, 09:40

New boat has self tacking jib. I rarely ever get all 3 sets (top, middle, bottom) of telltales streaming well. Too frequently I can get the bottom set done well, but many times the upper leach is way too open.

The jib track does not have stops or position control. I know for off the wind it is better to have screecher/genaker etc., but I don't have that yet, so I am wondering if others have figured out better ways to trim this type of sail than myself?

Cheechako · 30-06-2023, 10:09

Make yourself a Barber Hauler if you have some attachment points available at the toe rail or etc, you can redirect the sheeting angle with it attached to the clew. I used a 4 part one (like a boom vang setup) extensively for this, on sails like a staysail.

You can use one to pull the clew out for reaching or in more also depending on the anchor points you have available.

sailingharry · 30-06-2023, 10:34

I have a self-tacking jib as well. The issue you are experiencing is the Achilles heel of a self-tacking jib. The two problems are the inability of moving the sheet point, and the fact that a high aspect jib (all self-tacking jobs are high aspect) lifts and spills the top before the bottom changes much at all. The result is you have two sail conditions -- "trimmed for up wind" and "absolutely awful." LOL

One comment on the trimmed for upwind. Since you cannot move your sheet point to adjust the upwind sail trim, you have two solutions. Some jibs, like mine, have a clew with about five attachment points for the sheet. Use of the upper holes will tighten the top of the sail, use of the lower holes will loosen the top of the sail. This is absolutely a slow/difficult way to do it, but over a couple of days of sailing you can play with the attachment point to get good upwind trim. If you don't have a clew with adjustment points, a similar effect can be done by use of a short tack pennant (you can use a piece of chain or several shackles to play with the length). Lengthening the tack pennant will tighten the top of the jib, shortening the tack pennant will loosen the top of the jib.

Use of a barber haul, as suggested, is the only way to control sail shape off the wind. This does require leaving the cockpit to set it up and for every adjustment. While an obnoxious amount of string, I've often thought of rigging permanent barber hauls, port and starboard, that come back to the cockpit secondary winches.

Cheechako · 30-06-2023, 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingharry

I have a self-tacking jib as well. The issue you are experiencing is the Achilles heel of a self-tacking jib. The two problems are the inability of moving the sheet point, and the fact that a high aspect jib (all self-tacking jobs are high aspect) lifts and spills the top before the bottom changes much at all. The result is you have two sail conditions -- "trimmed for up wind" and "absolutely awful." LOL

One comment on the trimmed for upwind. Since you cannot move your sheet point to adjust the upwind sail trim, you have two solutions. Some jibs, like mine, have a clew with about five attachment points for the sheet. Use of the upper holes will tighten the top of the sail, use of the lower holes will loosen the top of the sail. This is absolutely a slow/difficult way to do it, but over a couple of days of sailing you can play with the attachment point to get good upwind trim. If you don't have a clew with adjustment points, a similar effect can be done by use of a short tack pennant (you can use a piece of chain or several shackles to play with the length). Lengthening the tack pennant will tighten the top of the jib, shortening the tack pennant will loosen the top of the jib.

Use of a barber haul, as suggested, is the only way to control sail shape off the wind. This does require leaving the cockpit to set it up and for every adjustment. While an obnoxious amount of string, I've often thought of rigging permanent barber hauls, port and starboard, that come back to the cockpit secondary winches.

That's what I did on my 47 footer. The staysail shape was useless. It would tack fine, but never draw well with poor sheet angle. I rigged a simple hauler on each side allowing me to adjust the sheet or hauler to create a 'Y' ... adjusting the clew in or out, often not even needing a winch to adjust the hauler: tack, adjust quick and go.

Cheechako · 30-06-2023, 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbinbi

New boat has self tacking jib. I rarely ever get all 3 sets (top, middle, bottom) of telltales streaming well. Too frequently I can get the bottom set done well, but many times the upper leach is way too open.

The jib track does not have stops or position control. I know for off the wind it is better to have screecher/genaker etc., but I don't have that yet, so I am wondering if others have figured out better ways to trim this type of sail than myself?

I just re read this. You have tracks? Cant you install stops which are moveable on the tracks?

jbinbi · 30-06-2023, 10:55

Might be able to, but track is short and curved. Barberhauler is possible. I do have 5 attachment points on the clew as well.

Had a hoyt jib boom on last boat, which was so much better as you could move both the boom and the sail off the boom, gave way more adjustment control, yet still let you tack without touching anything. Only issue was you had a boom on your foredeck.

psk125 · 30-06-2023, 12:05

Harry's solution, with multiple attachment points at the clew, is the best. Talk to your sailmaker. Cheechako's suggestion for a barber hauler gave me an idea. What if you let a line from the clew to a block that travels on the sheet, forward of the jib track. Something like a dinghy mainsheet block with a cam cleat on it. You could use this to "pinch" the angle of the sheet on the jib and adjust leech tension that way.

thinwater · 30-06-2023, 13:15

I had one on my last boat. Underpowerd to weather, and impossible to trim well and very underpowered off the wind.

I took it off and used a more conventional genoa. Ten years later I passed the sail along to the new owners, barely used.

IMO, the theory does not even make sense. Fit a proper genoa, it will be worth the time.

sailingharry · 30-06-2023, 15:26

In my case, the self tacker is brilliant. Above about 13kts to weather, pull a string and the 150% is gone, another string and the self tacker is out. Used it beating down the Bay today. Started with the 150, as the wind built shifted to the 95, as we rounded Point Lookout it took 2 minutes to shift from the 95 back to the 150 for the reach to Saint Mary's.

In OP's case, it might be easier said than done. Boats at the boat show are increasingly short on things like winches and jib tracks. [emoji849] And regardless, it's $5k just to buy a sail!

catsketcher · 01-07-2023, 04:54

When I raced 420s we had to adjust the position of the jib up and down the forestay to have the same effect as moving the lead, the leads were a single fairlead bolted to the deck. As has been stated above, if you have the leech too open you need to move the jib up the forestay. Putting a clew board on the clew is also a fine way but sliding the headsail up a little won't cost anything.

mikereed100 · 01-07-2023, 08:26

We have a self tacking jib with a simple arrangement of 2 sheets set widely apart with a 6 part tackle on each sheet. This allows precise control over the trim of the jib and it is a simple process to get all the telltales flowing correctly.

It becomes a bit cumbersome at wind angles greater than about 60 degrees or so as the boom is now past the leeward sheet's attachement point and the windward sheet is not doing much and it is hard to get the top of the sail tight. Normally I don't care much as the jib is quite small and the sail area at the head is tiny so does not affect speed much. If we are going to be at 90 degrees or more for any length of time we release the soft shackle that attaches the windward sheet to the boom and attach a barber hauler from the leeward bow to the boom. This is the cumbersome part, but it allows us to regain complete control of the shape of the sail. It also allows us to fix the boom almost perpendicular to the centerline of the boat, making running wing and wing with the genny easy.

When running downwind we sheet the jib to windward in this manner, with the genny to leeward. we can point as high as 120 degrees to the wind while wing and wing using this setup.
As I said, it can be cumbersome, but it is the best solution for our boat, as we cannot fit a track and it does allow precise control at all wind angles.

Chris Cringle · 02-07-2023, 05:38

The self tacking jib is a labor-saving device, not a performance enhancing device. That’s why you see them on short-handed cruising boats but not on hot racing boats. Don’t expect things to do what they were never designed to do.

sailingharry · 05-07-2023, 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Cringle

The self tacking jib is a labor-saving device, not a performance enhancing device. That’s why you see them on short-handed cruising boats but not on hot racing boats. Don’t expect things to do what they were never designed to do.

Indeed! We left an anchorage with a club I'm in this past weekend, never started the engine. It was a couple miles upwind in a fairly narrow river. Wind was a bit light, but we rolled out the 95%. A club member commented to me later that he really didn't know why we chose the little jib instead of the genny -- until the first tack. Then he was green with envy....

rslifkin · 06-07-2023, 05:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Cringle

The self tacking jib is a labor-saving device, not a performance enhancing device. That’s why you see them on short-handed cruising boats but not on hot racing boats. Don’t expect things to do what they were never designed to do.

In one sense, it can be a performance enhancement. If it allows you to reasonably short tack through a narrow channel that you'd otherwise motor through, then it has enhanced your sailing performance.