Trimming self tacking jib

[dhenline]

this may be a good place to ask the question. I am buying a new Cat and it is normally sold with a self tacking Jib. I can have a Genoa instead of the jib on the boat. Any thoughts on that?
I will also have a large Genaker for the light wind off the wind sailing. Just looking for thoughts on self tacker vs
Genoa for the upwind sailing

the self tacking jib is great for heavy weather but I was thinking I could always just roll in the Genoa a bit for heaving weather

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by dhenline

this may be a good place to ask the question. I am buying a new Cat and it is normally sold with a self tacking Jib. I can have a Genoa instead of the jib on the boat. Any thoughts on that?
I will also have a large Genaker for the light wind off the wind sailing. Just looking for thoughts on self tacker vs
Genoa for the upwind sailing

the self tacking jib is great for heavy weather but I was thinking I could always just roll in the Genoa a bit for heaving weather

Our boat was sole with either an overlapping genoa or a self tacking jib - I believe the distribution over 60-odd boats is 60% jib / 40% genoa. FWIW. Ask the distributer and/or manufacturer for their opinion.

With our self tacking jib we have a hole in our performance in light winds close hauled, basically up to 8 knots TWS. Once the TWS is above 9 knots we are fully powered up (close hauled). In 10-22 knots TWS we are absolutely in a joyous mood with our self tacking jib - beautiful sailing shape, no furling distortion, a relatively small sail that is easy to handle. If we had the genoa option we would have to start furling it in 15 knots TWS (that’s not heavy weather). And of course short tacking would be a PITA.

We have a gennaker (screecher) that is cut flat enough that we can sail up to 42* AWA with it sheeted tight against the leeward cap shroud. Unfortunately that sail is so big that we go too fast so that our upwind angle is 75-80* TWA - not reasonable for trying to go upwind.

We are planning to build an upwind gennaker that is about half the sail area of the existing gennaker and about 15% larger than the stock genoa. It will sheet inside the cap shrouds to the top of the salon cabin (where there are already molds and reinforcement for the genoa version tracks and winches). That will take care of light wind upwind. We would furl it with 15 knots AWS, so about 8-9 knots TWS.

If you are going to be sailing primarily in an area that often has light wind days, say less than 12 knots TWS, then the genoa option makes sense. But otherwise, I think not. We have considered and dismissed changing from our self tacker to a genoa.

The existing large, flat gennaker does very well from 50* AWA to 130* AWA with a mainsail and all the way to downwind if we don’t hoist our mainsail. A large symmetrical spinnaker takes care of reaching and running in lighter winds.

Note, all this is based on our experience with a relatively light weight performance oriented cat. If you are looking at a heavier accommodation oriented cat then the extra power of the genoa will be required for reasonable sailing in moderate winds. In that case, choose the genoa.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Note, all this is based on our experience with a relatively light weight performance oriented cat. If you are looking at a heavier accommodation oriented cat then the extra power of the genoa will be required for reasonable sailing in moderate winds. In that case, choose the genoa.

I don't own a cat, but I have done some time on a performance cat, and I've watched production cats. I can't agree more with Fxy. If you are looking at a performance cat (like Fxy has!), upwind performance is a consideration, and finding ways to reduce sail effectively is also a consideration. If you have a production cat, from what I can tell they don't sail upwind at all, and off the wind they need more sail area. I'd go for the genny.


Just this past weekend, we were on a beam reach in 10-15. We had our self tacker out, making 6-7. This SHOULD have been cranking cat weather. We watched a 40' production cat (never got close enough to identify make, but size and speed was visible on AIS) flying a small jib and full main. Our 43' monohull was close to a knot faster. I think he would have benefited from a genoa.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

I don't own a cat, but I have done some time on a performance cat, and I've watched production cats. I can't agree more with Fxy. If you are looking at a performance cat (like Fxy has!), upwind performance is a consideration, and finding ways to reduce sail effectively is also a consideration. If you have a production cat, from what I can tell they don't sail upwind at all, and off the wind they need more sail area. I'd go for the genny.


Just this past weekend, we were on a beam reach in 10-15. We had our self tacker out, making 6-7. This SHOULD have been cranking cat weather. We watched a 40' production cat (never got close enough to identify make, but size and speed was visible on AIS) flying a small jib and full main. Our 43' monohull was close to a knot faster. I think he would have benefited from a genoa.

I always specify whether I am referencing true wind (TWS or TWA) or apparent wind (AWS or AWA) as those can be very different. Typically a TWA beam reach is faster than an AWA beam reach in moderate breeze.

If an AWA reach then the angle would have been wide enough to require a wider sheeting angle. But that really matters only if you’re paying attention to sail shapes and tell tails. Often owners of comfort-oriented boats don’t give a toss about sail trimming and prefer to enjoy themselves experiencing sailing rather than participating in sailing. That’s perfectly acceptable and possibly what you saw.

[jbinbi]

OP here. Had a cat, lagoon 380 that had a real genoa. Having sailed on the newer lagoons, 39, 42, I believe that the 380 sailed much better with the genoa than the other boats with a STJ; certainly not a performance cat. But if daysailing and you have to short tack, PITA. Sailed lots on seawind 1190 with STJ and screecher, which worked out well.

Was sailing too much solo or with others who couldn't help, and getting older the cat was too much work. New boat is mono w STJ. Looking for simplicity and ease. Picked this boat because ALL lines are led back to helm. Nothing I have to go forward in the cockpit for (most boats have main halyard or furling there). Didn't want non sailing guests in the way by ANY lines). Easy to short tack with German main sheet and STJ. But started this thread since off the wind I find the leach way too open. I know there are compromises with these choices, just trying figure out how to ameliorate them.

I do have 5 holes in the clew, but 3 of them are used to attach the sail to the clew plate with straps (might be able to squeeze the jib sheet in). Holes 2 and 4 are open, currently the jib is attached to hole 4 (1 up from the bottom). I might try to move it to 1 from the top to see if this helps. I can't raise the jib higher on the forestay as someone else suggested, the top furling mechanism needs a bit of room or it won't furl correctly. Thanks for all the suggestions.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by jbinbi

OP here. Had a cat, lagoon 380 that had a real genoa. Having sailed on the newer lagoons, 39, 42, I believe that the 380 sailed much better with the genoa than the other boats with a STJ; certainly not a performance cat. But if daysailing and you have to short tack, PITA. Sailed lots on seawind 1190 with STJ and screecher, which worked out well.

Was sailing too much solo or with others who couldn't help, and getting older the cat was too much work. New boat is mono w STJ. Looking for simplicity and ease. Picked this boat because ALL lines are led back to helm. Nothing I have to go forward in the cockpit for (most boats have main halyard or furling there). Didn't want non sailing guests in the way by ANY lines). Easy to short tack with German main sheet and STJ. But started this thread since off the wind I find the leach way too open. I know there are compromises with these choices, just trying figure out how to ameliorate them.

I do have 5 holes in the clew, but 3 of them are used to attach the sail to the clew plate with straps (might be able to squeeze the jib sheet in). Holes 2 and 4 are open, currently the jib is attached to hole 4 (1 up from the bottom). I might try to move it to 1 from the top to see if this helps. I can't raise the jib higher on the forestay as someone else suggested, the top furling mechanism needs a bit of room or it won't furl correctly. Thanks for all the suggestions.

If you want to pull the sheet lead forward when off the wind, changing the clew board hole won’t help much and would tighten the leech too much for upwind. Add a barber hauler to each side instead.

The barber hauler pulls the sheet between the clew and sheet lead out to the deck edge, effectively moving your sheet lead out and forward. You can install a LFR or simple SS ring on each jib sheet (it should slide loosely on the sheet and have no sharp edges), with the adjustment line attached to the ring. On the deck edge use an existing toerail fitting, or cleat, or install a reinforced pad eye. The location should be well forward of the usual jib sheet lead (between a third and half of the jib’s foot length forward). The adjustment line can lead through a cleat to a winch, or use a 4:1 or 6:1 purchase on it with a cam cleat - whichever is more convenient to use.

When sailing upwind the barber hauls are loose. As you bear away, gradually add tension to the leeward barber haul to keep the jib’s leech from opening up too much (a little is OK - think about matching your mainsail’s leech curve). The jib sheet will be pulled sideways and down by the barber hauler, effectively producing a wide sheet lead. Ensure that your jib sheet lead can handle the different approach angle of the barber hauled jib sheet.

[Symphony]

I am older and partially disabled so replaced my big boat with a 21' Pisces daysailer. Very safe, deep cockpit, modernized Herreshoff Fish design so she's also quite fast enough for me. Huge mainsail on carbon fiber mast, overhanging boom, and a roller furl self tacking blade on a carbon boom. jib furler has two lines; in and out. Dutchman handles the main for me. The boat points to 20 deg and tacking is fast and effortless. Hull muscles through chop. Even my wife loves sailing now.

When reaching or going deep, the blade does not contribute much, but I found that I can affect twist in the jib a good amount by adjusting the sheet while also loosening or tightening the furling-out string (not touching the furl-in line), which pulls the clew toward the boom end or lets it fly away.

If we're running downwind, the main is more than enough to power the boat and I often furl the blade to reduce aero hamper.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

When I raced 420s we had to adjust the position of the jib up and down the forestay to have the same effect as moving the lead, the leads were a single fairlead bolted to the deck. As has been stated above, if you have the leech too open you need to move the jib up the forestay. Putting a clew board on the clew is also a fine way but sliding the headsail up a little won't cost anything.

Ha, I also learned to sail in 420's. What a boat. An evil little bitch with far too much sail area for its size.


The clew board is the right solution to this, with barber haulers when necessary. I have a self tacking staysail and it's not all that hard to make it work well if you don't mind spending some time on the foredeck.

[catsketcher]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Ha, I also learned to sail in 420's. What a boat. An evil little bitch with far too much sail area for its size.

I alway found the 420 a very sedate boat, but then again I used to race near 12 foot skiffs which are shorter and have about 3 times the sail area.

[dlymn]

Dinghy sailors ( eg int 420) sometimes use the lazy sheet as a barber hauler. An inch of tension is claimed to give a speed boost. Might be Ok for a jib but a long genoa might be asking too much.