The loss of M/V Conception

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

Hmm I’ve just read the report.
I find the US Atourny interference and obstruction of the NTSB investigation quite disturbing, surly after a tragedy like this allowing those involved to speak openly and freely to the NTSB investigation is much more important to the public interest and preventing future accidents than a persecution which will not answer the missing questions.

I understand the public is probably angry and want someone held accountable. Even so proving criminal negligence is quite hard.
A regulation wasn’t followed. By anyone. Not just this particular Capt. Nobody not even the CG even bothered to ever check if this regulation was ever followed.

Detex clocks for security rounds have existed since the early 20 centuary and have been used in many industries. So enforcement would not have been hard, heck just an hourly note in the log, rounds complete would have sufficed.
Instead the whole company and most of the industry thought it was unimportant.

Gulity? Maybe. but so are all the rest.

Hanging the Capt. from the yard arm 34 times isn’t going to change anything now. It’s 34 times to late.

The company was considered one of the best, yet clearly woefully inadequate. CG ect all now know this with 20 20 hindsight.
They did upgrade the boats and probably tried to follow the requirements but have apparently gone out of business. And could still be facing charges.

How many times had the NTSB requested SMS for domestic passenger vessels. Congress gave CG approval 10 years ago WTF.
Hang the Capt.

The dive company did improve their boats. Too late for 34 people. Oddly the company had a reputation for being proactive when working with CG. If this inadequacy had ever been raised they would probably have done something about it.

The lack of oversight, training and drills is alarmingly common within the industry. Hence NTSB repeatedly asking for tighter requirements.

The designe was outdated and crap. But compliant with existing regs. NTSB repeatedly recommended changesn. To requirements.
To late for 34 people.

To be guilty of criminal negligence. The prosecution will have to prove he knew and understood what he was doing was wrong and chose to do it anyway.
It’s a pretty high test.
For example a federal judge just dismissed similar charges on the Duck boat case. Including the skipper.

Clearly they guilty of running a crappy operation which resulted in 17 fatalities. According to a federal judge not guilty of a criminal negligence or manslaughter.

I wonder how many 100 ton licensed skippers here actually knew and complied with all these same requirements. Prior to this incident.
Rounds training and drills.

Do they even get it now?

I was working for, consulting for, a major US transit agency and had occasion to question some safety practices. I read a recent NTSB report that heavily criticized then for the lack of attention to safety and referred to earlier reports and requirements. So I dug deeper and found a 20+ year trend of accidents followed by NTSB reports followed by actions that were just papering over the core problems. Which now, 10+ years later on, still exist. Massive amounts of money were needlessly spent with no positive effect because the organizations core culture difficulties were never addressed.

As to hanging the captain 34 times. It accomplishes nothing but “rendering justice” which is just revenge.

There is no doubt some worthwhile recommendations/ requirements will come from this: second doors and more audible alarms. Yet there is another element. Living is risky business that can not be made totally safe simply because humans beings are flawed creatures. We do not work with the relentless mathematical precision of computers and machines. We screw up.

Beating on this captain in and of itself resolves and improves nothing except to extract revenge, assuage guilt in others a provide a fig leaf of responsible action by authorities.

[Dsanduril]

Bringing back an old thread, seeking deep pockets, the families and survivors are suing the USCG for inadequate inspections.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/...coast-79799743

https://www.independent.com/2021/09/...t-coast-guard/

I suspect the defense will be Congress and Subchapter T. This will take years.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

Bringing back an old thread, seeking deep pockets, the families and survivors are suing the USCG for inadequate inspections.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/...coast-79799743

https://www.independent.com/2021/09/...t-coast-guard/

I suspect the defense will be Congress and Subchapter T. This will take years.

Sounds like a good attorney go after the money. The co. will probably go tits up. When you are working for a third of the take go for making worth your while.

[IslandHopper]

And on it still goes......

Criminal Charge Reinstated Against Captain of ‘Conception’ Dive Boat

https://www.independent.com/2022/10/...ion-dive-boat/

The criminal charge of misconduct or neglect by a ship’s officer against Jerry Boylan was reinstated today, in the deaths of 33 passengers and a crew member aboard the Conception dive boat, which caught fire while anchored in the Santa Barbara Channel near Santa Cruz Island on September 2, 2019. The charge of seaman’s manslaughter had been dismissed by a federal court last month, for a lack of inclusion of gross negligence. The single count in the new federal grand jury indictment against Boylan “alleges a series of failures and the abandoning of his ship, which constituted ‘misconduct, gross negligence, and inattention to his duties,’ and led to the deaths of 34 victims,” according to a press release this Tuesday from the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Los Angeles, which is prosecuting the case.

Boylan stands accused of abandoning ship and saving himself, failing in many of his responsibilities as captain. The press release enumerated those failures, including failing to have a night watch or roving patrol, a watch that the National Transportation and Safety Board (NTSB) had identified as a key factor that could have prevented the tragedy; failing in instructing the crew in fire prevention before the fire and once it started; and failing “to perform any lifesaving or firefighting activities whatsoever at the time of the fire, even though he was uninjured.” The final failure listed was “becoming the first crewmember to abandon ship ‘even though 33 passengers and one crewmember were still alive and trapped below deck in the vessel’s bunkroom and in need of assistance to escape.'”

According to the crew’s testimony, Boylan told them he believed the passengers were beyond saving. Information in the coroner’s reports demonstrate that some passengers were dressed, some haphazardly in mismatched shoes, when they died, apparently of asphyxiation.

The Conception caught fire somewhere between 2:30 a.m. and 3:15 a.m. — a time span that marks when the last crewmember went to sleep and when Boylan sent a mayday call that the ship was on fire. While the captain and most of the crew slept above the galley area, the passengers and one crewmember were sleeping belowdecks. Both of the exits from that belowdecks bunkroom led to the galley, which was engulfed in fire and smoke, caused by what is thought to be household-grade wiring and lithium batteries that were charging on a rat’s nest of extension cords.

In making its final report, the NTSB stated it was unable to determine the exact cause of the fire as the FBI retained much of the evidence. The FBI, the Coast Guard Investigative Service, and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives are still investigating the fire, the press release stated.

Boylan will appear on an arraignment regarding the new charge in the coming weeks. Should he be found guilty, Boylan faces a maximum of 10 years in federal prison.

[JPA Cate]

It is an awfully sad story. The moderator, Don C L, will have local knowledge of some of the intricacies.

Ann

[boat driver]

Originally Posted by hpeer

I was working for, consulting for, a major US transit agency and had occasion to question some safety practices. I read a recent NTSB report that heavily criticized then for the lack of attention to safety and referred to earlier reports and requirements. So I dug deeper and found a 20+ year trend of accidents followed by NTSB reports followed by actions that were just papering over the core problems. Which now, 10+ years later on, still exist. Massive amounts of money were needlessly spent with no positive effect because the organizations core culture difficulties were never addressed.

As to hanging the captain 34 times. It accomplishes nothing but “rendering justice” which is just revenge.

There is no doubt some worthwhile recommendations/ requirements will come from this: second doors and more audible alarms. Yet there is another element. Living is risky business that can not be made totally safe simply because humans beings are flawed creatures. We do not work with the relentless mathematical precision of computers and machines. We screw up.

Beating on this captain in and of itself resolves and improves nothing except to extract revenge, assuage guilt in others a provide a fig leaf of responsible action by authorities.

Lithium battery understanding was not public knowledge in this fire- it is without question the fire was started in the battery charging area, and the escape design of the vessel is a culmination of years errors prior to the captain taking the helm.
Unfortunately, this is why the Captain often went down with the ship. Gave an easy target to blame without concern for his future welfare.
tragic accident but learn and correct, not keep blaming technical issues that human psychology can not correct.

[goboatingnow]

I do think it’s right the captain should carry blame.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I do think it’s right the captain should carry blame.

Punishing people for things beyond their control makes for good literature and good movies. It is useful for keeping order in the military and in totalitarian regimes.


It has no place in a republic founded upon the principles of individual rights and rule of law.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Punishing people for things beyond their control makes for good literature and good movies. It is useful for keeping order in the military and in totalitarian regimes.


It has no place in a republic founded upon the principles of individual rights and rule of law.

Yes but ultimately he is responsible that’s the flip side of command.

As for nonsense about totalitarian issues I’m
Sure JB is working on it

[HeywoodJ]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Punishing people for things beyond their control makes for good literature and good movies. It is useful for keeping order in the military and in totalitarian regimes.


It has no place in a republic founded upon the principles of individual rights and rule of law.

The rule of law makes the captain responsible if he didn't maintain the proper shipboard discipline.

§ 78.30-10 Supervised patrol.

(a) The provisions of this section shall apply to all vessels on an international voyage, and to all other vessels having berthed or stateroom accommodations for passengers. This section shall be applicable at all times when passengers are on board.

(b) Between the hours of 10 p.m. and 6 a.m., a supervised patrol shall be maintained so as to completely cover all parts of the vessel accessible to passengers or crew, excepting occupied sleeping accommodations and machinery spaces and similar spaces where a regular watch is maintained.

48CFR78.30-10

And the part of the law that makes the captain responsible:

§ 78.30-20 Master's and officer's responsibility.

(a) Nothing in this part shall exonerate any master or officer in command from the consequences of any neglect to keep a proper lookout or to maintain a proper fire watch or from any neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen or by the special circumstances of the case. When circumstances require it, additional watches shall be maintained to guard against fire or other danger and to give an alarm in case of accident or disaster.

48CFR78.30-20

It will be up to a court and a jury to determine whether the captain, through the crew he commanded, met the requirements of the patrol as required by law. From all reporting it appears that he did not, but reporting frequently only provides part of the story.

[donradcliffe]

In this particular case, the requirement for a roving watch while passengers were aboard was written into their USCG Conditions of Operation. The Captain chose to ignore it, but it was certainly under his control. The deathtrap design was not.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

The Captain chose to ignore it, but it was certainly under his control.

Not if he wanted to keep his job.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Not if he wanted to keep his job.

Please explain why you think so. If I was captain on that boat, there would have been a night watch. If the crew said that was not customary, I would have rubbed their nose in the posted COI and told them that when I am on this boat, you will stand a night watch. I will take the first watch. End of story.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Please explain why you think so. If I was captain on that boat, there would have been a night watch. If the crew said that was not customary, I would have rubbed their nose in the posted COI and told them that when I am on this boat, you will stand a night watch. I will take the first watch. End of story.

Because there weren't enough deck workers aboard to set a roving watch and be able to operate the boat and make dives during the day. The crew were already working long, physical, active hours. The way the industry has responded to the loss of the m/v Conception is to add a crew member to each of the similar boats so they can set a roving night watch.


And you would not have rubbed the crews noses in anything because before being the master of the vessel you would have had many voyages as crew aboard the same vessel and would understand how things are done. Furthermore you would have had several voyages where you were unofficially in charge on a probationary basis while another master was officially in charge and observing how you handled authority. Had you made a scene at that point you would have been overruled, and would find yourself working as crew while your promotion to master was inexplicably (to you) delayed.


And had, arguendo, you instituted a watch schedule and taken the night watches yourself, you would not be sufficiently rested during the day to perform your many duties during the day. Among those are some that that per the COI cannot be delegated, such as the roll call after each dive to be sure that all divers are back aboard.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

It is an awfully sad story. The moderator, Don C L, will have local knowledge of some of the intricacies.

Ann

I don't have much from my own experiences or discussions with friends from the SB harbor to add. I never did a dive trip on Conception but my wife and I got married on the sister ship Vision. I do sail past the anchorage they were in often and have pondered just how a fire could start that could overwhelm everyone, including crew, so quickly. The quote, "Both of the exits from that belowdecks bunkroom led to the galley, which was engulfed in fire and smoke, caused by what is thought to be household-grade wiring and lithium batteries that were charging on a rat’s nest of extension cords." has always been my assumption. The gas given off, and/or just immediate lack of oxygen, from burning batteries, causing rapid unconsciousness had always been my conclusion as well. By accounts I know of Conception and the captain ran very successful trips for many years. The new thing that marked this trip, to me, from what I have read, was the addition of charging high capacity lithium batteries, which apparently was done in the galley and may have been done in the sleeping area as well.

Still, more to the point currently, IMO, if it is true the captain did not order the roving watch, was the first off the boat and did nothing to attempt rescue or fire suppression, that is hard to defend. That said, I have never seen a lithium battery fire personally but from what I have seen in videos they burn very fast, very hot, give off a lot of smoke and are nearly impossible to extinguish. Given what I have seen in videos I don't think the extinguishers that are required and present on a boat like Conception (and all boats) would have stopped the battery fire even if they had been used. And remember they had larger batteries for cameras and scooters. To the captain it may have appeared to be more of an uncontrollable explosion than a fire an extinguisher could put out. I don't mean that as an excuse or defense, just something else to consider.