Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 27-10-2022, 16:37   #301
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Cruz
Boat: SAnta Cruz 27
Posts: 6,888
Re: The loss of M/V Conception

[QUOTE=Jammer;3698523]Because there weren't enough deck workers aboard to set a roving watch and be able to operate the boat and make dives during the day. The crew were already working long, physical, active hours. The way the industry has responded to the loss of the m/v Conception is to add a crew member to each of the similar boats so they can set a roving night watch.


And you would not have rubbed the crews noses in anything because before being the master of the vessel you would have had many voyages as crew aboard the same vessel and would understand how things are done. Furthermore you would have had several voyages where you were unofficially in charge on a probationary basis while another master was officially in charge and observing how you handled authority. Had you made a scene at that point you would have been overruled, and would find yourself working as crew while your promotion to master was inexplicably (to you) delayed.


And had, arguendo, you instituted a watch schedule and taken the night watches yourself, you would not be sufficiently rested during the day to perform your many duties during the day. Among those are some that that per the COI cannot be delegated, such as the roll call after each dive to be sure that all divers are back aboard.[/QUOTE

You are confused about the role of a captain. The captain is the ultimate authority aboard, and the captain has the responsibility to exercise that authority when necessary. A commercial boat is not a Democracy.

Having double-handed a boat around the world, I am well versed in fatigue, and I can tell you if the crew is rested enough to party, they are rested enough to stand watch at night.
donradcliffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-10-2022, 19:16   #302
Moderator
 
Don C L's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 14,691
Images: 66
Re: The loss of M/V Conception

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
I don't have much from my own experiences or discussions with friends from the SB harbor to add. I never did a dive trip on Conception but my wife and I got married on the sister ship Vision. I do sail past the anchorage they were in often and have pondered just how a fire could start that could overwhelm everyone, including crew, so quickly. The quote, "Both of the exits from that belowdecks bunkroom led to the galley, which was engulfed in fire and smoke, caused by what is thought to be household-grade wiring and lithium batteries that were charging on a ratís nest of extension cords." has always been my assumption. The gas given off, and/or just immediate lack of oxygen, from burning batteries, causing rapid unconsciousness had always been my conclusion as well. By accounts I know of Conception and the captain ran very successful trips for many years. The new thing that marked this trip, to me, from what I have read, was the addition of charging high capacity lithium batteries, which apparently was done in the galley and may have been done in the sleeping area as well.

Still, more to the point currently, IMO, if it is true the captain did not order the roving watch, was the first off the boat and did nothing to attempt rescue or fire suppression, that is hard to defend. That said, I have never seen a lithium battery fire personally but from what I have seen in videos they burn very fast, very hot, give off a lot of smoke and are nearly impossible to extinguish. Given what I have seen in videos I don't think the extinguishers that are required and present on a boat like Conception (and all boats) would have stopped the battery fire even if they had been used. And remember they had larger batteries for cameras and scooters. To the captain it may have appeared to be more of an uncontrollable explosion than a fire an extinguisher could put out. I don't mean that as an excuse or defense, just something else to consider.
Since I broached the subject of the fire caused by Lithium batteries I feel obligated to say I do not know that any agency has determined that was the cause definitively. The thread currently running regarding LFP safety, https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...-269082-6.html, has been very interesting and I am in no position to, nor do I want to indict LFP batteries. IF the batteries were the culprit, what I did find even more interesting is the paper posted by donradcliffe, post #80, where it discussed the amounts of gases released by a runaway of both LFP (less likely) and NCA (more likely,) and the high amount of CO2 released. I know high concentrations of CO2 is much more dangerous than CO, (concentrations of 30% or more can cause unconsciousness in seconds, not minutes like CO) rendering the conditions for the crew potentially even more dangerous than just smoke if they had been able to enter the galley to try to fight the blaze.
__________________
DL
Pythagoras
1962 Columbia 29 MKI #37
Don C L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-10-2022, 20:35   #303
Moderator
 
Jammer's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Minnesota
Boat: Tartan 3800
Posts: 5,102
Re: The loss of M/V Conception

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
Since I broached the subject of the fire caused by Lithium batteries I feel obligated to say I do not know that any agency has determined that was the cause definitively. The thread currently running regarding LFP safety, https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...-269082-6.html, has been very interesting and I am in no position to, nor do I want to indict LFP batteries.

LFP batteries simply aren't used in dive gear. The various Li-Co chemistries are used instead.


I see it as a major problem. Dive lights, video lights, and scooters are of widely varying quality and safety and some/many of them use removable cells or packs due to the difficulty and expense of installing an electrical connector for charging that will remain sealed at depth. Cells vary in quality and removable cells are very easy to drop and are no longer safe to use after this has happened even once.


I have rethought my approach to dive lights having previously used ones with 18650 cells that had to be removed to be charged. I believe this is unsafe and have switched to lower-performance lights that use NiMH cells.


I still have lithium-cobalt batteries aboard for other purposes and do charge them aboard but they are all in packs or devices that provide some degree of cushioning and are all from well-known top-flight manufacturers that are reasonably careful about the safety of their cells.


While the accident report writers have chosen to focus on the absence of a roving watch I believe that the sloppy charging of lithium batteries of doubtful provenance was as much a part of the accident chain.
__________________
The best part of an adventure is the people you meet.
Jammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-10-2022, 21:59   #304
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Other people's boats
Posts: 1,130
Re: The loss of M/V Conception

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer View Post
While the accident report writers have chosen to focus on the absence of a roving watch I believe that the sloppy charging of lithium batteries of doubtful provenance was as much a part of the accident chain.
I too suspect such an issue with the batteries was the origin of the fire. The few articles I've recently checked indicated part of why the NTSB wasn't able to focus more on this was due to still on-going investigations by the FBI and others, which prevented them from accessing all of the relevant evidence.

However, fires aboard ship have been a concern for ages. From a quick search it seems fires occur with some regularity, whether a cruise ship, a container ship, or a ro-ro passenger vessel. This makes effective detection and response a key part. Otherwise you're just playing whack-a-mole with the cut corner du jour.
requiem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-10-2022, 00:13   #305
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
Images: 3
Re: The loss of M/V Conception

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer View Post
LFP batteries simply aren't used in dive gear. The various Li-Co chemistries are used instead.


I see it as a major problem. Dive lights, video lights, and scooters are of widely varying quality and safety and some/many of them use removable cells or packs due to the difficulty and expense of installing an electrical connector for charging that will remain sealed at depth. Cells vary in quality and removable cells are very easy to drop and are no longer safe to use after this has happened even once.


I have rethought my approach to dive lights having previously used ones with 18650 cells that had to be removed to be charged. I believe this is unsafe and have switched to lower-performance lights that use NiMH cells.


I still have lithium-cobalt batteries aboard for other purposes and do charge them aboard but they are all in packs or devices that provide some degree of cushioning and are all from well-known top-flight manufacturers that are reasonably careful about the safety of their cells.


While the accident report writers have chosen to focus on the absence of a roving watch I believe that the sloppy charging of lithium batteries of doubtful provenance was as much a part of the accident chain.


It matters not. The captain does and must bear the consequences. Heís undertaken to provide a safe experience to his passengers. If that fails by whatever means heís responsible.
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2022, 14:48   #306
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 10,280
Re: The loss of M/V Conception

Quote:
Originally Posted by boat driver View Post
Lithium battery understanding was not public knowledge in this fire- it is without question the fire was started in the battery charging area, and the escape design of the vessel is a culmination of years errors prior to the captain taking the helm.

Unfortunately, this is why the Captain often went down with the ship. Gave an easy target to blame without concern for his future welfare.

tragic accident but learn and correct, not keep blaming technical issues that human psychology can not correct.
All valid points in the defense of the captain. ..
But the families want blood/revenge for a tragedy that "could" have been prevented with a company mandated night watch and a captain enforcing it
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2022, 15:01   #307
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 10,280
Re: The loss of M/V Conception

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer View Post
Because there weren't enough deck workers aboard to set a roving watch and be able to operate the boat and make dives during the day. The crew were already working long, physical, active hours. The way the industry has responded to the loss of the m/v Conception is to add a crew member to each of the similar boats so they can set a roving night watch.


And you would not have rubbed the crews noses in anything because before being the master of the vessel you would have had many voyages as crew aboard the same vessel and would understand how things are done. Furthermore you would have had several voyages where you were unofficially in charge on a probationary basis while another master was officially in charge and observing how you handled authority. Had you made a scene at that point you would have been overruled, and would find yourself working as crew while your promotion to master was inexplicably (to you) delayed.


And had, arguendo, you instituted a watch schedule and taken the night watches yourself, you would not be sufficiently rested during the day to perform your many duties during the day. Among those are some that that per the COI cannot be delegated, such as the roll call after each dive to be sure that all divers are back aboard.
You nailed the reality of how the industry works as I have captained liveaboard dive boats and overnight sport fishing boats ... 120ft and 180ft.
I've fought those battles to insure enough crew for a night watch when the company used the familiar excuse of not enough crew bunks for that "extra" guy.

Bottom line is that you decide what kind of captain you will be..... when taking command and responsibility for the safety of those on board.
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2023, 14:58   #308
Moderator
 
Don C L's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 14,691
Images: 66
Re: The loss of M/V Conception

Recent news on the fire's source:

https://www.independent.com/2023/09/...f-report-says/
__________________
DL
Pythagoras
1962 Columbia 29 MKI #37
Don C L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2023, 15:06   #309
Registered User
 
AKA-None's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Lake City MN
Boat: C&C 27 Mk III
Posts: 2,647
Re: The loss of M/V Conception

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don C L View Post


Interesting
__________________
Special knowledge can be a terrible disadvantage if it leads you too far along a path that you cannot explain anymore.
Frank Herbert 'Dune'
AKA-None is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2023, 15:35   #310
Moderator

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,565
Re: The loss of M/V Conception

Itís significant that after this incident ( and the duckboat as well as other passenger vessel multiple fatalities) there is still no implementation of the tried and tested SMS ( safety management system) for passenger vessels despite years of recommendations and representations to USCG. The system works in way that would have stopped the unsafe practices leading to the deaths aboard the MV Conception. Iím not familiar with USCG rules and inspection procedures but here in Australia we rigidly observe both the AMSA survey and SMS requirements (as well as IMO ......as does the rest of the commercial maritime industry) with the responsibility for safety firmly on the captain (and crew). The SMS book is kept up to date with every possible existing or arising safety issue and is available for reading for all crew, both coastal and foreign going. IMO compliant vessels under US flag already use SMS so itís difficult to understand or justify the lack of SMS throughout the domestic passenger vessel operations.
skipperpete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2023, 16:00   #311
Registered User
 
Kettlewell's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Boat: Finnsailer 38
Posts: 5,702
Re: The loss of M/V Conception

Quote:
The report also revealed that polyethylene trash cans like the one involved were prone to accidental fires, and safety alerts regarding such garbage cans were issued by the Coast Guard this June.
Why polyethylene trash cans?
__________________
JJKettlewell
"Go small, Go simple, Go now"
Kettlewell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2023, 16:50   #312
Registered User
 
Dsanduril's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Petersburg, AK
Boat: Outremer 50S
Posts: 4,229
Re: The loss of M/V Conception

Interesting. Had thought the batttery source plausible, and a good (albeit horrible) learning experience all around. Trash can fires are something we know about and know how to deal with. Very sad that a non-flammable can with a tight fitting lid might have made all the difference. Of course, the roving watch would have had to make sure the lid was tightly fitted after all the passengers that don't pay attention to that kind of thing toddled off to bed.
Dsanduril is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2023, 21:18   #313
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 716
Re: The loss of M/V Conception

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
Very interesting thanks for posting.
So much for jumping to conclusions.

Surprised ATF not providing info to NTSB to update report and make recommendations.
I would have thunk safety trumps prosecution. but what would i know.

A gashcan fire. Has been one of the most common since the Phoenicians first put sea. Smokers having increased the danger soon after Sir Walter Raleigh invented cigars. Not new and one of the primary reasons Pax vessels are required to have a on duty watch and rounds.

Lawyers will make all sorts of arguments. Its what they do.

The unfortunate Skipper still GAF. No doubt he will be strung up from the nearest yard arm. The world will be much safer. or at least the Lawyers will be richer.
How much he really understood about what the requirements really were and what he should have been doing.
He was just the unlucky b' steward on the night. The company other similar vessels operated the same way for years with apparent approval of USCG who completely dropped the ball.
Many other similar vessels were operated in a similar manner.

The reality if any one he worked for or who regulated and inspected his vessel had done their job properly this tragedy would not have happened.

But the public need a scapegoat.

In any event regardless of how this play's out his life is ruined. Along with other survivors and families of those lost.
Uricanejack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2023, 21:59   #314
Moderator

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,565
Re: The loss of M/V Conception

The skipper isnít a scapegoat, itís his job to protect the lives of those aboard, he trained for it and practiced all the skills required to stop 35 people from dying and in that , he failed.
skipperpete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2023, 23:58   #315
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 716
Re: The loss of M/V Conception

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipperpete View Post
The skipper isn’t a scapegoat, it’s his job to protect the lives of those aboard, he trained for it and practiced all the skills required to stop 35 people from dying and in that , he failed.
Ok the Public needs someone to hold or be held accountable.
Skipper, Master, Captain or person in charge of and responsible for the operation of the boat. He be the guy.
Use whatever term you like.

He didn't appear to have much more than bare minimal Experience, knowledge skill, training or practice. What little he had he got working for this outfit. So he learned how to do it wrong right from the get go.
Uricanejack is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
concept

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Instant Weight Loss GordMay Cooking and Provisioning: Food & Drink 9 23-09-2019 08:18
Help me plan a trip that involves Conception Island and more! PetePetePete Atlantic & the Caribbean 1 01-02-2018 08:50
Bahamas, Conception Island Achorages caradow Atlantic & the Caribbean 8 19-01-2016 17:15
Am I Stupid to Be Afraid? 15-20 & 25 kt gusts Around Point Conception sww914 Our Community 5 12-02-2012 00:19
Good Place to Anchor Near Point Conception rebel heart Pacific & South China Sea 17 19-10-2010 19:08

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:53.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.