Sheet to tiller downwind unlocked!

[cruisin123]

For some time I’ve been perfecting my sheet to tiller system on my Coronado 23. Upwind has always been easy but downwind took a little longer to figure out. I’m really stoked that today I finally unlocked sheet to tiller running downwind. It just took an extra block and routing the jib sheet across the cockpit. On my boat going upwind, sheet to tiller works better when rigged to the main, however, downwind I’ve now found it’s got to be rigged to the jib. I’ve become incredibly confident in this powerful system on my boat and with minimal tweaking I’m now able to dial it into fairly precise headings. I would recommend anyone interested in sheet to tiller to check out John Letcher’s book. Here’s a photo of what works on my boat running downwind.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by cruisin123

For some time I’ve been perfecting my sheet to tiller system on my Coronado 23. Upwind has always been easy but downwind took a little longer to figure out. I’m really stoked that today I finally unlocked sheet to tiller running downwind. It just took an extra block and routing the jib sheet across the cockpit. On my boat going upwind, sheet to tiller works better when rigged to the main, however, downwind I’ve now found it’s got to be rigged to the jib. I’ve become incredibly confident in this powerful system on my boat and with minimal tweaking I’m now able to dial it into fairly precise headings. I would recommend anyone interested in sheet to tiller to check out John Letcher’s book. Here’s a photo of what works on my boat running downwind.

Fairly precise means what? I have managed this, but a few issues:

1) more chafe on the sails and lines.
2) needs adjustment with wind speed changes
3) in stronger winds (20 knots+) must use smaller and smaller head sail to avoid overpowering the bungee. By 30 knots was using the storm jib for steering sail. This reduced overall boat speed by 1-1.5 knots. I could not overpower the boat as normal.
4) limited to broad reach, then need to change things around for upwind, but a different system also for wing and wing (also possible with sheet to tiller)

It looks like you are in calm water making this easier. I was doing this off the coast of namibia when my wind vane oar broke off, and there was a significant swell running with stronger winds.

wind vane or autopilot allows much less effort with adjustment, and more efficient sailing with also reduced wear. I don't really consider this useful for anything but emergency if the normal auto steering system fails.

[cruisin123]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

Fairly precise means what? I have managed this, but a few issues:

1) more chafe on the sails and lines.
2) needs adjustment with wind speed changes
3) in stronger winds (20 knots+) must use smaller and smaller head sail to avoid overpowering the bungee. By 30 knots was using the storm jib for steering sail. This reduced overall boat speed by 1-1.5 knots. I could not overpower the boat as normal.
4) limited to broad reach, then need to change things around for upwind, but a different system also for wing and wing (also possible with sheet to tiller)

It looks like you are in calm water making this easier. I was doing this off the coast of namibia when my wind vane oar broke off, and there was a significant swell running with stronger winds.

wind vane or autopilot allows much less effort with adjustment, and more efficient sailing with also reduced wear. I don't really consider this useful for anything but emergency if the normal auto steering system fails.

Fairly precise meaning that it takes me a few minutes to set up and once that’s done the boat goes where I want it to go. If the wind shifts I have to make a quick adjustment, takes a couple seconds.

I never said s2t was better than vanes or autopilots, just sharing the setup that’s been working for me on my boat so anyone interested in s2t can check it out.

Are vanes and autopilots more reliable? I don’t know, maybe. You just said yours broke in half or something in the middle of an offshore passage, that doesn’t sound super reliable to me.

To your comment about not finding it useful except for as a backup after all else fails, you are certainly entitled to your own opinion however, Letcher used sheet to tiller as his primary self steering system to sail from Los Angeles to Hawaii to Alaska to Los Angeles so there’s no argument on whether or not it works. Just a matter of finding the correct setup for the boat.

[CFS Klopas]

Is that a rolling hitch to fine adjust the line connecting the elastic??

[Adelie]

The Lee Woas book showed a whole bunch of different s2t systems for different rigs, wind strength & directions.

[Benz]

This is cool. Thanks for posting....I have Letcher's book, but never got bored enough to fiddle with S to T.
Also, how does in work in bigger seas? For me, getting the boat to self-steer is always harder in big following seas.

[Orion Jim]

I have a cutter so I’ve got three sails to play with. I can’t be bothered with sheet to tiller (I’ve got wheel steering but I could use my emergency tiller) since I have a Monitor windvane but on several occasions I’ve sailed to windward for several hours, even offshore, just by fiddling with balancing the sails with the wheel locked. I usually do it just to amuse myself but it’s a skill which could come in handy some day. I’ve never tried it when sailing downwind but I have when broadreaching. To stay on course broadreaching I do best in winds of 20+ knots.

[JPA Cate]

Hi, Cruisin123,

Good on you: you've made s to t work on your boat. Jim fixed up a setup on his Yankee 30 that worked okay on a beam to broad reach (the boat would sail on the wind, just by trimming, she'd follow it in the lifts and lulls just fine.)

In our case, the s to t did not work reliably in big swells that we encountered on the way back from HI to SF. It would sort of hold course long enough to go below to use the head or make a cuppa, but needed attention. Don't know how far offshore you intend to take your boat, but on the boat we bought next, the one before this one, Jim created a wind vane for it, and the windvane did a better job on all points of sail, and only required re-setting for real wind shifts. It did not ever sail quite as straight a course as an autopilot, which will hold your compass heading till it fails, but the heading averages were fine. It must have steered us 85,000 miles before we sold the boat.

Reliable? well, one of the pintles broke, one time there was a stress riser in the weld; and another time the actual rudder broke. Basically, the balance hadn't come out quite right and there were two sets of holes -- Jim'd had to add new holes to move the rudder forward (the auxiliary rudder on the wind vane) for better balance (the new, cast pintles re-used old holes), and it tore along the dotted line in ~ 50 kn, when we fell off a wave. So it wasn't bullet proof, but imo, it definitely was reliable, and it did do what was necessary.

With electric autopilots, well, the s to t on the Yankee was what he came up with when one failed 3 days or so out of HI, and we hand steered from the Tuamotus to Tahiti when another one broke. I think if it is electronic, it is a question of when, not if, it will break. Most offshore cruisers would carry at least one spare. There were also times on passage where repairs were made under way. Our windvane was dead nuts reliable and took no electricity AND was silent in operation, no sawing back and forth.

One way that has worked along the trade winds run across the Pacific is twin headsails to the tiller. It is rolly, and you can add a reefed mainsail to the combination, to dampen the rolling somewhat.

Ann

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by cruisin123

Fairly precise meaning that it takes me a few minutes to Are vanes and autopilots more reliable? I don’t know, maybe. You just said yours broke in half or something in the middle of an offshore passage, that doesn’t sound super reliable to me.

Nothing is super reliable. I can say for sure I would have gone through several shock cords from thousands of hours of UV if I had used this system anywhere near the distance of the wind vane, and probably chaffed through some lines. My biggest concern is that this system in larger swells will always get to a point where the main shades the steering sail which makes the sheet go slack and the shock brings the boat back to the wind.

In flat water it can react enough from the slight change in force, but in any considerable seastate I don't think you can avoid this, and it means slower speed, and more wear and chafe.

sheet to tiller is going to be way easier to fix if something breaks though, so it is a very useful system

To your comment about not finding it useful except for as a backup after all else fails, you are certainly entitled to your own opinion however, Letcher used sheet to tiller as his primary self steering system to sail from Los Angeles to Hawaii to Alaska to Los Angeles so there’s no argument on whether or not it works. Just a matter of finding the correct setup for the boat.

I met a few people who only use this also, and it can certainly work.

It is even claimed that with a cutter rig backwinding the staysail for a steering sail works on more points of sail with less adjustments needed, but you sacrifice some drive.

A lot more people should try it. It does requires more adjustments, not only for wind shifts but wind speed changes, as well as overall lower boat speeds.

[cruisin123]

Originally Posted by CFS Klopas

Is that a rolling hitch to fine adjust the line connecting the elastic??

I believe those adjustable hitches I’m using on the tiller are called the midshipman’s hitch. But when I read your comment I realized that I could simplify the system even more by using a rolling hitch instead of that carabiner so thanks!

[cruisin123]

Originally Posted by Benz

This is cool. Thanks for posting....I have Letcher's book, but never got bored enough to fiddle with S to T.
Also, how does in work in bigger seas? For me, getting the boat to self-steer is always harder in big following seas.

Sure thing, Haven’t tried this system in huge seas yet so I couldn’t tell you from personal experience.

[cruisin123]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Hi, Cruisin123,

Good on you: you've made s to t work on your boat. Jim fixed up a setup on his Yankee 30 that worked okay on a beam to broad reach (the boat would sail on the wind, just by trimming, she'd follow it in the lifts and lulls just fine.)

In our case, the s to t did not work reliably in big swells that we encountered on the way back from HI to SF. It would sort of hold course long enough to go below to use the head or make a cuppa, but needed attention. Don't know how far offshore you intend to take your boat, but on the boat we bought next, the one before this one, Jim created a wind vane for it, and the windvane did a better job on all points of sail, and only required re-setting for real wind shifts. It did not ever sail quite as straight a course as an autopilot, which will hold your compass heading till it fails, but the heading averages were fine. It must have steered us 85,000 miles before we sold the boat.

Reliable? well, one of the pintles broke, one time there was a stress riser in the weld; and another time the actual rudder broke. Basically, the balance hadn't come out quite right and there were two sets of holes -- Jim'd had to add new holes to move the rudder forward (the auxiliary rudder on the wind vane) for better balance (the new, cast pintles re-used old holes), and it tore along the dotted line in ~ 50 kn, when we fell off a wave. So it wasn't bullet proof, but imo, it definitely was reliable, and it did do what was necessary.

With electric autopilots, well, the s to t on the Yankee was what he came up with when one failed 3 days or so out of HI, and we hand steered from the Tuamotus to Tahiti when another one broke. I think if it is electronic, it is a question of when, not if, it will break. Most offshore cruisers would carry at least one spare. There were also times on passage where repairs were made under way. Our windvane was dead nuts reliable and took no electricity AND was silent in operation, no sawing back and forth.

One way that has worked along the trade winds run across the Pacific is twin headsails to the tiller. It is rolly, and you can add a reefed mainsail to the combination, to dampen the rolling somewhat.

Ann

Thanks for sharing those great stories and insights. BTW I was just on a yankee 30 the other day and got the feeling it was a really solid boat.

[cruisin123]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

Nothing is super reliable. I can say for sure I would have gone through several shock cords from thousands of hours of UV if I had used this system anywhere near the distance of the wind vane, and probably chaffed through some lines. My biggest concern is that this system in larger swells will always get to a point where the main shades the steering sail which makes the sheet go slack and the shock brings the boat back to the wind.

In flat water it can react enough from the slight change in force, but in any considerable seastate I don't think you can avoid this, and it means slower speed, and more wear and chafe.

sheet to tiller is going to be way easier to fix if something breaks though, so it is a very useful system


I met a few people who only use this also, and it can certainly work.

It is even claimed that with a cutter rig backwinding the staysail for a steering sail works on more points of sail with less adjustments needed, but you sacrifice some drive.

A lot more people should try it. It does requires more adjustments, not only for wind shifts but wind speed changes, as well as overall lower boat speeds.

Great points, thanks!

[CFS Klopas]

This is the knot I thought might be a rolling hitch. Since it sounds like it's not, can you describe how to change course with the system engaged?

[Don C L]

I like it, I'm going to try it too. I am sure the success of any set-up depends a lot on the boat too. Got any videos of it on youtube? I'd love to see it in action.
oh btw, the knot is also a taught-line hitch... same principle...