sailing downwind without a kite or pole?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

for DDW +/- maybe ten degrees, we can usually keep the genoa full, wing and wing, without a pole. Takes careful steering, but it works ok.

Jim

PS If you go the bamboo makeshift pole, be careful... consider the pole breaking and the sharp end going through the collapsing genoa. Charter company may not like that very much!

Definitely a possibility in heavier conditions, not recommended, however Bamboo more often breaks but stays connected, but yeah, a spear of it could damage a sail (or a person). The main as easily as the genoa. Notice the pole beginning to pierce the main in the photo. Biggest risk is coming off the mast. Take down the bamboo before you reach this point.

Is it likely to break?

https://www.bambooimport.com/en/blog...ties-of-bamboo

The compressive strength of bamboo is roughly situated between 40 and 80 N/mm2 which is twice to four times the value of most timber species.

Shear stress parallel to grain is approximately 10 times lower than compressive strength and even 20 times lower than the tensile strength of the same bamboo species. Still, the shear strength of bamboo is often twice the value of popular timber species.

The bending strength of most bamboo species varies between 50 and 150 N/mm2 and is on average twice as strong as most conventional structural timbers.

This is roughly in the same ball park as aluminum, however aluminum bends without always breaking, Bamboo splinters and breaks while some portions remain connected.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/p...pe-d_1340.html

Photo by Sharon Green

[Uncle G]

We forgot to take the pole with us one year and so lashed together a couple of oars and used rolling hitches on each end.


It worked OK, but it was only a very light wind - on a 28 foot boat.



I think the stresses involved on a bigger boat would probably be too much to be worth the risk.

[scallowayuk]

ive spent 4 winters in the caribbean theres not much dead downwind sailing between islands.mostly close hauled or broad reaching

[BlackHeron]

IMHO Running DDW with a Genoa or other large sail in lightnwinds is mostly a matter of sail area versus the weight of the sail and the sheets trying to pull it down and collapse the pocket.

Our lightweight 155% nylon drifter weighs almost nothing and with 1/4" or thereabouts line, flies without the need of a pole DDW even down to a couple of knots apparent while still moving the boat along enough to maintain helm.

[grantmc]

I often see someone on deck, leaning out over the life line, holding out the head sail with a boat hook.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Exonerated

A whisker pole can be great help sailing downwind without a spinnaker, for getting a genoa projected out further.

My question: Does anyone have tips for a makeshift pole, or advice for sailing downwind without one?

I'm chartering a boat in a few weeks, and I don't believe it will come with a spinnaker or pole.

My usual approach in these situations is just to end up pointing fairly high. Anyone have advice for pointing lower, while still having power?

If you’re unable to keep the genoa filled and it keeps collapsing....Fire up the iron jib!

[deblen]

A defunct Shakespeare 4018 VHF ant.,with the top whip discarded,makes a nice whisker pole.
I even bought a pair of ?? brand whisker pole snap clips for the ends.
http://www.apsltd.com/external-spin-pole-end-1-25.html

Works great for holding the 150 out in mild conditions.
Len

[lateral]

Sorry for the irrelevant post of mine above; skip reading & not engaging brain.
How about one of the painters telescopic pole sanders pole, or telescopic outrigger that
the heathen use to catch marlin. Window washers/maintenance pole/tree surgeon.
Commercial grade of course & will cost. Mostly it should be in compression if setup right.
Although that wouldn't be the best sail shape.
Our whisker pole is next to useless for this as too short.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...22fa1e94JftNBL
https://www.google.com/search?q=heav...#imgrc=_&vet=1

M2CW

[Cpt Pat]

I fly twin jibs. I had my sail maker make identical jibs with staggered hanks. If you're going close to dead downwind, no poles are needed. And the autopilot doesn't have much to do since the "twins" will pull the bow back to downwind if it deviates. The main gets taken in.

This is a long-time practice for the single-handed transpac.

But then, I have "outdated" hanked-on jibs.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

Our lightweight 155% nylon drifter weighs almost nothing and with 1/4" or thereabouts line, flies without the need of a pole DDW even down to a couple of knots apparent while still moving the boat along enough to maintain helm.

Beautiful sail, but I am troubled the statement, "still moving the boat along enough to maintain helm".

For most of us that's about 2 knots. With a main and a whisker pole on the foresail or some other arrangement to keep all the sails filled, and maybe some moderate reaching angle, you could double that speed or more.

If we are just out for a pleasant, sleepy, afternoon drinking a glass of wine maybe 2 knots vs 4 is OK. But if we're doing a passage, even a short coastal hop, that would be unacceptable.

And when the sleepy afternoon is over, what next? Take down the sail and start the motor?

I'd lobby for a full main and some way to keep the kite filled and use the sails to get somewhere, not just for idle entertainment.

[BlackHeron]

We are faster with just the 155% poled or no, in 4kts true than with the main up unless we can accomplish wing on wing DDW long-term. If the wind is that light it is often all over the place and the main shades this sail way too much to do any good if we can't maintain wing on wing. We have done it both ways and with a preventer the main is pretty forgiving in a jibe although it plays havoc on VMG. We can just set up the Drifter and coast effortlessly DDW with the monitor or play silly buggers on the helm trying to maintain wing on wing fighting a wobbling goblin for hours on end forn an extra half knot or so and a course that wanders all over the place nonetheless.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

We are faster with just the 155% poled or no, in 4kts true than with the main up unless we can accomplish wing on wing DDW long-term. If the wind is that light it is often all over the place and the main shades this sail way too much to do any good if we can't maintain wing on wing. We have done it both ways and with a preventer the main is pretty forgiving in a jibe although it plays havoc on VMG. We can just set up the Drifter and coast effortlessly DDW with the monitor or play silly buggers on the helm trying to maintain wing on wing fighting a wobbling goblin for hours on end forn an extra half knot or so and a course that wanders all over the place nonetheless.

4 kts of true wind is pretty light.

But in 4 kts true you should sail at 140 degees wind angle with genoa and main. You should be able to achieve 3-4kts of boat speed with a VMG of 2-3 (my numbers for your boat indicate higher speeds than that but I doubt if you'll believe them).

The wind vane might have a hard time with that but if it will steer you DDW then it should steer you on the broad reach with the bit higher apparent wind.

If the monitor is steering you don't have to worry too much about small wind shifts, the boat will follow them.

You will have to jibe periodically to reach your destination.

On the other hand sailing directly downwind in 4kts true with only a 155 genoa you will be fortunate to get 1-2 kts. boat speed.

[Stu Jackson]

w&w or by the lee


Always tons o'fun.

[patprice]

A couple of thoughts on using a pole.
If cought out with sudden to much wind, and if having a headsail furler, one can crank in the headsail with the pole in place.

Down wind sailing....what is that. Of late all I can find is headwinds lol.

[RaymondR]

Gave up on those beaky things on the end of the poles years ago, outhauls through the poles releasable from the cockpit is the only way to go.

And civilized people go downwind with twin head sails.