Freighters vs. Sailboats

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by cappy208

The concept of determining risk of collision can be done with no tools. Ask a guy on a laser heading across the bow of a ferryboat.

I was trying to gauge the members thoughts on the accuracy of using relative position (which requires no tools as you point out) and a HB compass.
The textbooks stress the latter technique, but I prefer the former with the HB as backup that takes over when course corrections are needed.

[noelex 77]

My caution for this thread would be don't assume assume large ships always see you.

This was last recent encounter perfect visibility 30nm from the nearest land, 1000m depth, no other ships. I watched the freighter for 15mins. They ignored radio calls.
As the stand on vessel I held my course then made a significant course change and slowed down, when a perfect T bone was inevitable.

These sort encounters are not rare.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by cappy208

True. But your earlier post didnt say this. It said. It only applied on Great Lakes and western river with fair current.

What I said:

Originally Posted by Lodesman

A freighter would only have "right of way" when downbound in narrow channels or fairways of the Great Lakes (on the US side) or Western Rivers; there is no other case where it would.

I take your point that the inexperienced may not be able to make the distinction between "right of way" and other responsibilities of the colregs, but I thought it important to point out that "right of way" is only used in this one part of the Inland Rules, and does not otherwise appear in colregs.

I see that Raku has seized upon the line that no vessel is privileged, which I think is the point that needs to be driven home. Sailboats have responsibilities that extend far beyond "keep away from freighters."

[Mystic38]

+1

I personally believe that it is pointless waving a copy of the Colregs in indignation as your vessel sinks beneath you.

So, me? I simply assume that freighters cannot see me and will always maneuver to avoid them...If i have other issues that seriously impede my opportunity to do so then i will radio them.

Originally Posted by noelex 77

My caution for this thread would be don't assume assume large ships always see you.

[cappy208]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

What I said:

I think what you are saying is that you are a stickler for the specific word(s) of the Colregs, BUT, The phrase 'Stand On-Give way' is a morph of the 'old' term 'Right Of Way.' This forum is NOT a court of law. Semantics are not useful. Whether the 'old' term is used, or the current term is used is irrelevant. ALL need to understand that the common denominator is the sailor who is having a hard time even following the (in my humble opinion) most basic Rule. "Use any method to ascertain if risk of collision exists."
Or more appropriately, 'KNOWING" method(s) of determining if risk exists.

There have been many replies which have drawn criticism. If a sailor does not know IS he is on a collision course, the semantics of 'Give way', 'Stand on' are pretty much useless.

Go to ANY yacht club and ask out loud: "Does a sailboat always have the 'right of way?'" and you will understand the problem. There are people on this thread who have replied, who actually think they have a good grasp of both Colregs, AND how to determine if risk exists..... But what they 'think' is not reality. (But this is not to take away from the many good, competent seamen who lurk here!)

There is a HUGE difference between perceived Confidence and actual Competence. Cure THAT and the topic will go away. It doesn't matter what you call it: Right of way, stand on, give way. If you are going to be run over.... get out of the way. Part of this conundrum is simply being able to discern IF you are about to be a bow ornament for a ship.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Coops

Actually, it looks like you did.

Coops.

Coops, that's extremely weird.

That IS my screen name to the left. However, i've never been "nine stories up" or whatever it says, on a freighter. In fact, I've never been on a freighter. I know little about AIS and wouldn't be explaining it to anyone.

In short -- those ain't my words. Truly, honest to goodness. I have absolutely no idea how those words ended up with my name on them, but that's not information I know, not experiences I have had, and ... not my post.

I didn't start this thread.

It's a little troubling to me that this could happen. I wonder what other posts I didn't make have my name on them? I wonder how many other people this has happened to?

Go back and read that first post, Coop. Does that sound like experience I have *ever* said I had? Sheeesh -- no wonder people thought I was making stuff up!!!

[cappy208]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

I didn't start this thread.

Ummm.. Go to the very first page. You did start this thread....... I alluded to that earlier in jest, not to be critical. The topic is just as valid when you started it as it is now.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Raku
Learn the coleegs and you don't have problem. Sail along thinking you are driving a car and you are a danger to everyone.

Not my problem if you insist the colregs don't matter. I sail about 20000 miles away from you so I don't have to keep an eye open for you

Well, your response stood, so here's my response to you:

I *don't* sail as if I'm driving a car. Is English your first language? because you're missing an important word - "NOT." There are NOT lanes in channels. I recently said that. I've made several posts in the last couple of weeks explaining how many beginners still think the way they do behind the wheel of a car, for instance, imagining a gently graded bottom when that bottom can vary greatly within just a few feet.

So it's pretty clear you're just carrying around a mean-spirited view of me and spew anger at me whenever the spirit moves you.

I've learned a lot in the last six years, and I'll continue to learn. I'll be a better and better sailor until the day comes when I have to stop.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

What I said:



I take your point that the inexperienced may not be able to make the distinction between "right of way" and other responsibilities of the colregs, but I thought it important to point out that "right of way" is only used in this one part of the Inland Rules, and does not otherwise appear in colregs.

I see that Raku has seized upon the line that no vessel is privileged, which I think is the point that needs to be driven home. Sailboats have responsibilities that extend far beyond "keep away from freighters."

OF COURSE THEY DO: but the title of the thread is "freighters vs. sailboats."

I'm not sure what "seizing" upon something means. I thought it was an important point related to the topic of freighters vs. sailboats.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by cappy208

Ummm.. Go to the very first page. You did start this thread....... I alluded to that earlier in jest, not to be critical. The topic is just as valid when you started it as it is now.

Yes, I went back and looked at the first post after Coop said that:

THOSE AREN'T MY WORDS AND I HAVE NO IDEA HOW MY NAME CAME TO BE NEXT TO THEM.

That post is full of information I don't have and things i've never experienced. I've never been on a freighter and know next-to-nothing about AIS, just for starters.

I DID NOT START THIS THREAD and I do not know whose words they are, but they're not mine. When did I EVER claim to be any kind of captain or be on a freighter? I learned to sail six years ago, and the only motor boat I ever operate is a small Carolina skiff the sail school uses as safety boat for our sail school.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Some time ago I created quite a heated discussion by stating that when it comes to freighters and sailboats the freighter actually had the right of way because of the freighter's lessened ability to maneuver. I got "ridden hard and put away wet" because of that statement, but because of my source (Coast Guard) I didn't change my statement. I then got called out for "not listening to people with more experience."

This quote is from SAIL magazine (p. 12), January 2012. I'll quote the pertinent parts, but the writer's point was that sailboats should have AIS. Here it is:

"I make my living s a senior officer aboard large container ships. Contrary to popular belief, we do not have the latest and greatest radars on board. On a clear, calm day, a 40 ft sailboat looks like a white speck more than few miles out. If I'm lucky, I can acquire and plot it when it's 5 miles out. Traveling at 25 knots, I cover 2.5 miles every six minutes, so even if I put the wheel hard over I would advance a half-mile before turning. If I threw the engine in reverse it would take 3 miles at full astern to stop.

"Take it from me at 12 stories up: AIS helps ships "see" pleasure craft. We'll see a pleasure craft's AIS signal 20 miles before physically sighting a vessel. For the sake of us all, get an AIS and get seen!"

This solidly supports my statement that large vessels, specifically freighters and cruise ships, do not really see sailboats well. By the time you're within five miles of such a boat, it may well be up to the sailboat to stay out of the freighter's way. CLEARLY a freighter has less maneuverability than a sailboat -- even one under sail.

Without AIS, that white spec they see from five miles out might be anything and won't necessarily look like a collision hazard to the bigger ship.

The Coast Guard said exactly the same thing at the talk I attended. So now I have two sources, although hearing it from the Coast Guard was enough for me personally.

The one over-arching rule, the one that trumps any section of the ColRegs that could be quoted here, is that one must do everything possible to avoid a collision, but the ColRegs also were written following some basic principles. One of them is that the less maneuverable ship/boat has the right of way. All the sections in CR stating who has the ROW in specific instances are based on those two principles: do everything possible to avoid a collision, and the most maneuverable vessel is to give right of way. In a channel, clearly a freighter has to stay in the channel, but they aren't always in channels.

The above quote is post #1 in a thread attributed to Rahuflames.

Looks to me like she did start it... but I don't really see what difference this makes.

Jim

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by J Clark H356

It's fairly easy to determine a collision course even if you don't have MARPHA or AIS. If the object doesn't move it's location RELATIVE TO a fixed point on your boat, you are on a collision course. Just pick a point on your lifelines that lines up with the other boat - while standing in the same location, the object should move either left or right over time. If it doesn't move horizontally, YOU WILL HIT IT!

To repeat what has already been mentioned, this technique only works if your own boat's heading is constant. If you change course, even slightly, the on-deck bearing will change even if you remain on a collision course. I generally use my hand-bearing compass, or sight across the binnacle compass. This works even if my course or heading are wandering.

Also, when close to the approaching ship, check the bearings to the bow and stern both. At extremis, you may miss the bow and stern but ram the other vessel amidships. In most cases you shouldn't be close enough for this to be an issue, but in harbor or in channels this might come up.

[cappy208]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

this technique only works if your own boat's heading is constant. If you change course, even slightly, the on-deck bearing will change even if you remain on a collision course. I generally use my hand-bearing compass, or sight across the binnacle compass. This works even if my course or heading are wandering.

This is negated by taking visual bearings, when on the original sighted heading. as long as repetive bearings are taken when BACK on the original heading this works.

Also, when close to the approaching ship, check the bearings to the bow and stern both. At extremis, you may miss the bow and stern but ram the other vessel amidships. In most cases you shouldn't be close enough for this to be an issue, but in harbor or in channels this might come up.

Regarding the bow or stern, it completely depends upon if you are trying to pass either astern or ahead of said large steel wall. If you are trying to pass ahead, then you watch the bow. If you want to assure passage astern, you sight the stern. But the most important thing is to practice this, so you can perfect it when you REALLY need it. Taking time to sight the 'uninvolved end' is a waste of time, and just clouds the issue.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by cappy208

This is negated by taking visual bearings, when on the original sighted heading. as long as repetive bearings are taken when BACK on the original heading this works.

G'Day Cappy,

What you say is true, but I have found that in any significant seaway the yachts heading changes so frequently that determining what the heading is/was at either the first or the later sighting is difficult.

IMO, in small boats with limited directional stability, the HBC method is far superior to the "stanchion sighting" method.

Cheers,

Jim

[TUNA]

Post # 79

[QUOTE=Rakuflames;1038520]Since I am the OP, I will point out that you can only make the title just so long.... QUOTE]

It would seem memory fades; I know mine does.

Provided only for the purpose of clarification