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cappy208 · 08-07-2013, 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodesman

A freighter would only have "right of way" when downbound in narrow channels or fairways of the Great Lakes (on the US side) or Western Rivers; there is no other case where it would.
.

This is incorrect

ANY vessel (freighter or otherwise) that can only navigate IN the channel (in Inland waters) has the right of way. When you use the play on words and submit it like you did it gives the 'Scooberts' of the world the wrong idea.

By blending the Great Lakes a d western rivers into 'Inland' you are making this more complicated than it needs to be for the newbie.

Rakuflames · 08-07-2013, 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Simple methods like lining up stanchions or using the EBL line on your radar will provide enough information to spot a problem, small craft should take avoiding action well in advance of any potential collision possibility. Where it be become tricky is where you have traffic from several angles , and you are running out of searoom. At that point you may have little option but to follow the COLREGS. The worst thing is to start weaving about at random.

Dave

Sure, just as long as the spotter is in the same position on the boat each time. Of course that is true with any method.

cappy208 · 08-07-2013, 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Sure, just as long as the spotter is in the same position on the boat each time. Of course that is true with any method.

My point is this method needs to be preached to all. The members in this forum are most likely NOT the audience that is needed to attend class ( so to speak)

jackdale · 08-07-2013, 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Sure, just as long as the spotter is in the same position on the boat each time. Of course that is true with any method.

Not really. The HBC method gets its bearing from the observer to the target to the north magnetic pole. The visual using a shroud etc. gets its bearing from the observer to the boat part to the target. The latter requires the observer to stay much more still.

rgscpat · 08-07-2013, 18:27

In spite of the many differences between the IRPCAS/COLREGS/inland versus racing rules and how they are applied, sailboat racing does have a benefit in training sailors to adapt to rapidly changing rights and obligations between numerous vessels, yet typically with smaller and less lethal displacement and speed differences than exist between small craft and big ships. Racing does train people to get better at estimating relative speeds and changes in bearings, it also teaches more precise boat control, and it does help train people to be fore-handed in anticipating problems and planning ahead for how to mitigate them.
Of course, some racers, as well as some cruisers, have greater or lesser ability or motivation to learn prudent and capable seamanship.

Rakuflames · 08-07-2013, 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by cappy208

My point is this method needs to be preached to all. The members in this forum are most likely NOT the audience that is needed to attend class ( so to speak)

You know, we often see sailors come in here who are self-taught and proud of it.

I'm not self-taught. I started out with a short (four weeks on the water) class using 16.5' keelboats. It's really a simple skill to use a line of sight to make a rough judgment about whether or not you are on a collision course, and we were taught that in those 4-week classes.

it's not rocket science. Even if you haven't taken, say, plane geometry, it's logical and easy. It doesn't really require any expensive equipment. For instance, we did not have hand-bearing compasses on those little boats.

I think it's great to go out and practice what you've been taught, and you will figure some things out in the process, and it's great to read books, and sometimes you'll be able to apply things straight from that book to experiences on the water.

But I believe that good instruction results in better sailors in the long run.

Lodesman · 08-07-2013, 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by cappy208

This is incorrect

ANY vessel (freighter or otherwise) that can only navigate IN the channel (in Inland waters) has the right of way. When you use the play on words and submit it like you did it gives the 'Scooberts' of the world the wrong idea.

By blending the Great Lakes a d western rivers into 'Inland' you are making this more complicated than it needs to be for the newbie.

It's not a 'play on words' - the semantics of the colregs are very important. The USCG Navcen explains it well:

Quote:

5. Who has the "right of way" on the water? The Navigation Rules convey a right-of-way only in one particular circumstance: to power-driven vessels proceeding downbound with a following current in narrow channels or fairways of the Great Lakes , Western Rivers, or other waters specified by regulation (Inland Rule 9(a)(ii)). Otherwise, power-driven vessels are to keep out of the way (Rule 18) and either give-way (Rule 16) or stand-on (Rule 17) to vessels not under command or restricted in their ability to maneuver, sailing vessels or vessels engaged in fishing, and, similarly vessels should avoid impeding the safe passage of a vessel constrained by her draft (Rule 18), navigating a narrow channel (Rule 9) or traffic separation scheme (Rule 10). The Rules do not grant privileges they impose responsibilities and require precaution under all conditions and circumstances

Rakuflames · 08-07-2013, 19:05

Here's the really important part:

"The Rules do not grant privileges they impose responsibilities"

cappy208 · 08-07-2013, 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

You know, we often see sailors come in here who are self-taught and proud of it.

I'm not self-taught. I started out with a short (four weeks on the water) class using 16.5' keelboats. It's really a simple skill to use a line of sight to make a rough judgment about whether or not you are on a collision course, and we were taught that in those 4-week classes.

it's not rocket science. Even if you haven't taken, say, plane geometry, it's logical and easy. It doesn't really require any expensive equipment. For instance, we did not have hand-bearing compasses on those little boats.

I think it's great to go out and practice what you've been taught, and you will figure some things out in the process, and it's great to read books, and sometimes you'll be able to apply things straight from that book to experiences on the water.

But I believe that good instruction results in better sailors in the long run.

Really, No one is self taught. We all learned it watching reading or listening. What seems to be the issue, (since this thread is all your 'fault)' is that some are deliriously happy thinking 'sailboats have the right of way' and look no further for competence. Never mind that simply being able to follow a little rule like: 'use all available means to determine if risk of collision exists. '. If this small part of the Colregs is unable to be followed then the nuances of the rest is pretty much invalid ( with respects to said vessels). This thread has swayed so many times back and forth from 'what Colregs really means' to. 'Just stay out of the way' to 'How to take relative bearings'. It's really about how to avoid getting killed.

cappy208 · 08-07-2013, 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodesman

It's not a 'play on words' - the semantics of the colregs are very important. The USCG Navcen explains it well:

True. But your earlier post didnt say this. It said. It only applied on Great Lakes and western river with fair current. You specifically ended the paragraph with: 'there are no other circumstances that this would apply' (or similar) I know you are a technical expert in this field. But the audience that need to be reached is either incompetent to understand these semantics or is so befuddled at all the nuances they simply give up. It is FAR easier to just shrug your shoulders and continue thinking: 'Sailboats have the right of way' And they keep wondering why they are seeing large commercial vessels up close

When people read these half right, (too long) threads they shut down. I guess I will have to bid this topic adieu. It is too frustrating to see hear dodge and worry about the Scooberts of the world on these forums.

I have to avoid them in real life! There's a big difference.

Rakuflames · 08-07-2013, 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by cappy208

Really, No one is self taught. We all learned it watching reading or listening. What seems to be the issue, (since this thread is all your 'fault)' is that some are deliriously happy thinking 'sailboats have the right of way' and look no further for competence. Never mind that simply being able to follow a little rule like: 'use all available means to determine if risk of collision exists. '. If this small part of the Colregs is unable to be followed then the nuances of the rest is pretty much invalid ( with respects to said vessels). This thread has swayed so many times back and forth from 'what Colregs really means' to. 'Just stay out of the way' to 'How to take relative bearings'. It's really about how to avoid getting killed.

Well, I didn't start this thread, and have known for a very long time (virtually since I started sailing) -- and have said here more than once -- that the over-arching rule is to avoid collisions. I was the first person in this thread to say that in the event of a collision, both parties will be found to be at fault, even if one person is only 1% at fault. I used the ridiculous example of the cow that supposedly sailed on a boat (still not sure that really happened).

I have NEVER said that sailboats always have the right of way and in fact have argued against that notion. The only peson who seems to have believed that was our troll-like visitor.

Therapy · 08-07-2013, 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgscpat

In spite of the many differences between the IRPCAS/COLREGS/inland versus racing rules and how they are applied, sailboat racing does have a benefit in training sailors to adapt to rapidly changing rights and obligations between numerous vessels, yet typically with smaller and less lethal displacement and speed differences than exist between small craft and big ships. Racing does train people to get better at estimating relative speeds and changes in bearings, it also teaches more precise boat control, and it does help train people to be fore-handed in anticipating problems and planning ahead for how to mitigate them.
Of course, some racers, as well as some cruisers, have greater or lesser ability or motivation to learn prudent and capable seamanship.

Ain't that the truth.

Rakuflames · 08-07-2013, 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therapy

Ain't that the truth.

Racing, even in fairly informal ones, will tighten up all sorts of skills, such as snappy tacking (how many of you know someone who turns on the engine any time the wind is on the nose? Some narrow channels you may have to, but I know a bunch of people who do it in open, deep water, and in getting the sail trim right rapidly -- makes a huge difference in a race, yes, but it also makes a big difference when destination sailing. Why drift along at 5k when you could get another 2k out of your boat with a little effort?

And no, I don't know everything there is to know about any of this, but I understand the "why." I don't race -- except against myself. It has the same effect.