Collision Avoidance

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Knotical

Maybe this schematic will help, it is not up to scale but you will get the point.

There are no shipping channels where we were, there was no traffic, he came closer to land to approach me, and his direction change was made at the last minute. As soon as I saw him change course on AIS I became alert, we all know how fast they can cover 2-3 NM.

I have been sailing these waters for 8-9 years now and this is not the first time we have been bullied, we share stories of such incidents at our post-race beer gatherings and believe me, I am not the only one with such stories.

One old salt had announced a securite call on 16 last year after a power boater was doing circles at high speed around his boat, needless to say the power boater ran away after the call, I may start doing that.

I understand. You miss several points:


1. There was a reason that you do not know. Ships under pilotage do NOT change course without a reason, you just do not know what it was. Weather the reason was good enough to pull in behind you is interesting, but 35-something foot boats that often maneuver erratically look like so many fleas to them. If they are to wait for a clear path 6-8 miles out they often can't maneuver at all.

2. Once you are within 2 miles of the bow of a ship, you are potentially in Rule 17 country. He cannot stop or be sure that he can avoid you. Thus, you must respond according to rule 17 so that your next maneuver is predictable. Politeness does not play a part.


Ragging on COLREGS does not help. Like the road, not everyone follows the rules and not all driving is polite. But we need rules.


Everyone should try driving a semi-trailor in city traffic. I have. Cars do the dumbest stuff around you, and you sometimes use bulk to make way, safely. It's often impossible not to maneuver in a way that inconveniences some one. If everyone pays attention, it works out. Same in your situation. I'm sure it was simple for you to turn the wheel and move out of the way. It was the LI Sound, not the middle of the ocean. If all of your buddies had similar stories, I don't understand why it was a big surprise. This sort of thing happens daily on the Chesapeake Bay and it's not a big deal. It's just part of sailing waters that are shared with ships.

[Knotical]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I understand. You miss several points:


1. There was a reason that you do not know. Ships under pilotage do NOT change course without a reason, you just do not know what it was. Weather the reason was good enough to pull in behind you is interesting, but 35-something foot boats that often maneuver erratically look like so many fleas to them. If they are to wait for a clear path 6-8 miles out they often can't maneuver at all.

2. Once you are within 2 miles of the bow of a ship, you are potentially in Rule 17 country. He cannot stop or be sure that he can avoid you. Thus, you must respond according to rule 17 so that your next maneuver is predictable. Politeness does not play a part.


Ragging on COLREGS does not help. Like the road, not everyone follows the rules and not all driving is polite. But we need rules.


Everyone should try driving a semi-trailor in city traffic. I have. Cars do the dumbest stuff around you, and you sometimes use bulk to make way, safely. It's often impossible not to maneuver in a way that inconveniences some one. If everyone pays attention, it works out. Same in your situation. I'm sure it was simple for you to turn the wheel and move out of the way. It was the LI Sound, not the middle of the ocean. If all of your buddies had similar stories, I don't understand why it was a big surprise. This sort of thing happens daily on the Chesapeake Bay and it's not a big deal. It's just part of sailing waters that are shared with ships.

Surprised? No
We experience this regularly that’s why keep a keen eye, the fact that it happens so often makes the COLREGS useless, for it to be useful everyone needs to follow it, not just us slow sailors.

Forget about me being the stand on vessel under sail, just the fact that he could have avoided me if he had just maintained his course when we were both going in a consistent direction for >10 NM makes him wrong to change direction, and don’t try to justify his actions by saying “ships don’t change direction without a reason” - I know our waters and he took a risk himself and put me in danger by altering course.

During the heat of summer there a lot of racers out in the sound, now that’s what one could call a bunch of fleas going around in different directions, not 1 boat going in a consistent direction for miles.

You may have not liked cars doing dumb things around you during your semi-driving days but I am willing to bet you didn’t put anyone in danger and didn’t threaten to run someone over.

Rest assured, I will never put my boat, crew, or myself at risk of getting into a collision, but according to COLREGS, the responsibility shouldn’t just lie with me, should it?

[skipperpete]

Post the name of the ship and we can take a look at what happened out there by pulling up the AIS tracks. Thank you for the hand drawn chart, it’s not all that helpful regarding detail but perhaps the AIS history can clarify the reasons behind the apparently aggressive behavior of the cargo ship so we can all be better prepared to avoid the risk of collision in the future.

[Knotical]

Originally Posted by skipperpete

Post the name of the ship and we can take a look at what happened out there by pulling up the AIS tracks. Thank you for the hand drawn chart, it’s not all that helpful regarding detail but perhaps the AIS history can clarify the reasons behind the apparently aggressive behavior of the cargo ship so we can all be better prepared to avoid the risk of collision in the future.

Sure, like I have nothing better to do than take names of people who cross you so that some internet expert can do a thorough investigation, no thanks, nothing against you personally, but I like my peace and a head full of black hair.

This was not a rare occurrence, thinwater alluded to it also, we can’t go about letting it disturb our sleep or we won’t be able to sail, just gotta keep a good lookout and stay safe out there.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Knotical

... but I am willing to bet you didn’t put anyone in danger and didn’t threaten to run someone over....

In fact, my point is that I bet a few did think that. The classic case is making a right turn in traffic. You have choice between running the trailer wheels WAY up on the curb and running over pedestrians, and taking the turn wider, which leaves a gap on the right side. A car will try to sneak in, and once you start to turn you really can't see him anymore. Also, once he starts in there, and you have started you turn, you really can't stop, since you are blocking most of the intersection. You keep turning, hoping he gets the hint and stops before he gets too far forward. Yes, if you must, you stop. Of course. But I'm sure some of them get a good scare first, thinking I was going to run them over. Good. Next time they'll pay attention.



Could I wait for clear traffic? Not really, not during the hours with the business is open for deliveries.


(I'm a chemical engineer, but I did learn to drive and get a CDL, mostly for fun, and I did sub for a few critical deliveries. This was 40 years ago.)

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Knotical

Sure, like I have nothing better to do than take names of people who cross you so that some internet expert can do a thorough investigation, no thanks, nothing against you personally, but I like my peace and a head full of black hair.

This was not a rare occurrence, thinwater alluded to it also, we can’t go about letting it disturb our sleep or we won’t be able to sail, just gotta keep a good lookout and stay safe out there.

Would you mind posting the lat/lon or a geographic reference, so we can picture it against the chart?

[thinwater]

I don't think people are being nosy. I think they are curious why the ship turned, so that can understand factors that might have caused that. Of course, looking at the chart might not reveal that.

[requiem]

Hey, it keep us internet experts in practice! (On an largely un-related note, it seems like the ENC re-scheming is going to break the current model of selecting charts e.g. in the OpenCPN downloader. Lots of small rectangles in Long Island Sound instead of nice large named chunks!)

I'd like to look at a few tracks just to see what's going on; it could be a learning opportunity either way. Often people only learn a small part of the COLREGS and as a result erroneously think other vessels aren't in compliance, not knowing what they don't know. I'm also not going to suggest bad behavior doesn't happen, because often it does and many find it easier to assume it "simply doesn't happen" for as long as possible.

As to the original question in the thread, I'll likely need to play with some scenarios. My assumption is the diagram was influenced by the powerboat rules about not turning to port when possible, and that for sail it should instead reflect the sailing rules (relative tacks, etc).

[skipperpete]

Originally Posted by Knotical

Sure, like I have nothing better to do than take names of people who cross you so that some internet expert can do a thorough investigation, no thanks, nothing against you personally, but I like my peace and a head full of black hair.

This was not a rare occurrence, thinwater alluded to it also, we can’t go about letting it disturb our sleep or we won’t be able to sail, just gotta keep a good lookout and stay safe out there.

It’s not a major task to provide the ships name, you had it on AIS and from your initial post I assumed you were close enough to read the ships name and enter it in the log.

[Knotical]

By popular demand here are a few details-

Early Nov, 2023, approx 1700, setting sun

We were trying to get into Port Jeff before it got dark

I looked at my AIS, didn't get a track but got last position at 40°58'39"N and 73°06'18"W

Encounter happened approx 1-2 NM SW of 11A, and he passed between us and the lighthouse

Our course was mostly due east after passing Eatons neck, his was easterly also but more like ENE, he would have passed on our port side with a very wide margin he had maintained his course

Yes, I was able to see her name on AIS and on the ship's side but I didn't write it down, this kind of encounter is not that uncommon (maybe not exact but similar) and I don't fret over such incidences.

There is no debate in my case as to who was wrong, even if he was on a collision course with me he had enough room to change his course by a mere 1-2° to avoid me (I was under sail), I saw him from >10 NM out and I am sure he saw me too.

My original point was that there are failure points in COLREGS, one cannot enforce it as rules on road are enforced, it is up to 100% of boaters (no exception) for it to be successful, until then I will keep my distance from the big and fast guys - kind of contradicts COLREGS, doesn't it?

[Knotical]

On another note-

How do I pull up my AIS track at home? I only got a position online but not the whole track. I know I can get the track from my CP on the boat.

We have a Vesper XB-8000, a RM CP and I also use Aquamap on the phone which gets AIS signal via its wifi

Also, how to obtain another boat's AIS track?

[skipperpete]

“Vessel tracker” or “ Marine traffic” are two of the most common in use, select your vessel then select “past tracks” the quality of the data is directly related to how much you pay in the membership or app account. I think MarineTraffic gives a few of the paid services for free as an intro.

[Knotical]

Originally Posted by skipperpete

“Vessel tracker” or “ Marine traffic” are two of the most common in use, select your vessel then select “past tracks” the quality of the data is directly related to how much you pay in the membership or app account. I think MarineTraffic gives a few of the paid services for free as an intro.

Thank you, I guess I wasn’t able to see the track as I don’t have a subscription for either.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Knotical

By popular demand here are a few details-

Early Nov, 2023, approx 1700, setting sun

We were trying to get into Port Jeff before it got dark

I looked at my AIS, didn't get a track but got last position at 40°58'39"N and 73°06'18"W

Encounter happened approx 1-2 NM SW of 11A, and he passed between us and the lighthouse

Cheers for humoring the curious forumites.

I'm a little bit confused by your description. Are you sure this wouldn't have been NW of 11A?
By "lighthouse" I assume you mean the Stratford Shoal light?

If so, it's not really the "wide part of the sound." That's a bit of a choke point. At about 3 miles wide it may look big to you, but for a freighter it might not quite hit the criteria for "narrow channel", but it's narrow-ish.

You would have to consider that by the rules, he's expected to keep starboard of center, so that is now a 1.5-mile wide "lane" for him. I'm not sure about the 'anchorage ground' immediately East of that, but assume he may have felt a necessity to further confine his route to avoid that area. To him, you might have been bopping about further out into the shipping channel than you should have been - not saying I agree with him on that, just spit-ballin'.

Assuming there was no possibility of traffic coming the other way, then I can't see his issue with going around you. The reported radio threat is definitely poor form. I can offer an idea - I have frequently commented on this. A lot of people think pilots are the creme de la creme. This is not usually the case. You'd probably be surprised by the low level of qualification necessary to be a pilot in most jurisdictions. Usually they are former tug drivers. They have local knowledge, but a parochial view of the Rules. While very few tugs are RAM ( they are just power-driven vessels by the rules), most traffic tend to give them a wide berth anyway. This tends to give them the idea that they don't have to give way to anyone. This is a generality and doesn't apply to them all, but it's largely accurate.

If this is a frequent issue, I'd carry a recording device and tape any radio conversations that include such threats. Then I'd go visit the local coast guard office. The Rules aren't a farce. They work, but they do require enforcement. If you keep letting it happen, it won't get better.

[donradcliffe]

If you talked to the ship on CH16, the USCG has recorded every word, plus both AIS tracks.