Another Keel Lost; Another Capsize

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by TreblePlink

It appears to me that the current mishap was caused by the captain seeing that the #3 Green marker was not in line with the other Greens, was not on the port side of the cut, and there was no Red marker to starboard of G3. He guessed the buoy had unintentionally moved, and proceeded to Port of it.

I recall a post by one or more who live where this happened. They both said that in addition the buoys possibly moving, the sand bars are constantly changing. In a case of moving sandbars, the buoys can be off even if they haven't moved. Oops!

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I'm not so sure we should even use the word navigation anymore, no one navigates..push a few buttons and watch the video screen.

Sadly, you are quite correct. All too often people confuse following an arrow on a screen with navigation. Worse, some chart plotters will now plot a course for you. Perhaps we should stop calling these chart plotters and call them Lemming Leaders.

[atmartin]

Back in 2013 there was talk of removing many aids to navigation around the Channel Islands in southern California. Reasons given were budgetary (maintained by USCG) and lack of need given that GPS was near universal. There was some backlash among sailors and I don't think they went through with it.

Something similar was debated in Martha's Vineyard area a summer or two ago, and, in the end, most of the buoys were kept.

Some objections come to mind:

-Putting all our eggs in one basket (GPS paired with Accurate Charts)
-The idea the wealthiest country in the world (some will argue) somehow can't afford to maintain low-tech aids to navigation

I won't defend these turkeys; they seem to have run a con on their supporters, but if the marks had been clearer, they may not have wrecked their 'wreck'. No doubt: they screwed up, but if you have an intersection where there are lots of traffic accidents, usually you re-design the intersection.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by atmartin

... and lack of need given that GPS was near universal.

I'm pretty sure that this is not true. Granted, this is a cruiser's forum and day sailors are more likely to not have GPS, but they are still a part of the boating community.

Your objections are also very valid, especially the all your eggs in one basket argument. I would only add that using a chart plotter forces one to look down at the plotter, instead of looking at buoys and seeing what's going on. It's a great way to lose situational awareness and cause an accident.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY

>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Your objections are also very valid, especially the all your eggs in one basket argument. I would only add that using a chart plotter forces one to look down at the plotter, instead of looking at buoys and seeing what's going on. It's a great way to lose situational awareness and cause an accident.

True. I add the fact that when it is dark, it is very hard to steer a straight course manually, without an autopilot, especially with any seaway and/or deteriorating visual conditions.

I was coming into Crescent City, CA, after dusk in 2016. It was becoming foggy with 10-15 knots of S wind and only small wind waves, but enough to slew the stern around from quartering waves. There were only two lights I had to navigate: the entrance buoy and the breakwater light. We'd just passed the buoy, but the breakwater light kept coming and going in the fog. I made the mistake of disengaging the ap, but just couldn't keep a straight course with the boat bobbing and weaving. Once I re-engaged the ap, it was an easy task to make the small adjustments necessary to make the entrance.

I'd been sailing for more than 40 years and have been sailing this boat for the past 18.

Using a chartplotter doesn't "...force one to look down at..." it. One should be prepared with the next waypoint, determine the course and distance and then do so, eyes up. It's the misuse of chartplotters by novices and others.

Don't blame it on the chartplotter. That's like blaming the messenger for bad news.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

It's the misuse of chartplotters by novices and others.

Don't blame it on the chartplotter. That's like blaming the messenger for bad news.

You are one hundred percent correct on that and I should have phrased it better. Too often people confuse following an arrow with navigating. I tell people that it's a tool and like any tool, it can be used to greatly help you or it can be misused.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

"True. I add the fact that when it is dark, it is very hard to steer a straight course manually, without an autopilot..."

It is interesting that you commented on this. In land navigation, there is a similar phenomenon when hiking, especially in areas will few distinctive landmarks. People tend to walk in a circle when they don't have any references.

Boaters have the "benefit" of additional inputs such as the ones you described making it even harder when there are few, if any, visual inputs.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

No they didn't "allude" to paying for the boat salvage. When I first read it it specifically said the GoFundMe is solely to clean up the boat.

Fortunately waybackmachine kept a record.



Attachment 164423

https://web.archive.org/web/20180211...w-sailing-life


I'd suggest that anyone that made a donation should try to see if they can reverse it.

P.s. It tells me a lot about them that they didn't even proofread the new gofundme account (I.e. That they forgot the "need".)

Encouraging news: they have changed the GoFundMe again to say the first thing they'll do is salvage the boat.

Any update from the locals on if there has been any activity in that regard?

[sailorcherry]

Whoa Dwed, true that!

You partly have to blame the whole Google age - why pick up a book to learn how to or look at what broke to see if you can figure out how to fix it when it's waaaay easier and much faster to ask Google (or YouTube)? I agree, a parent teaching their kid handyman, home built, engineering whatever you want to label it is a dying art. There again blame laptops and phones - kids would much rather do that or use it in learning to do so than with their hands and instruction from their parent. I love these parents who lock down the electronics and make their kids disconnect, it's healthy. I swear the next time I talk to someone where I'm mid sentence and they decide to pick up their phone and look at it to see what the hell that ding was for I'm going to smack it out of their hand and chew them out all Madea style!

I have learned that if you own a boat and can't do most of the maintenance you better find a mate or partner who does. It's not just about affordable ways of maintaining it, it is about having someone experienced enough to know signs of something needing to be replaced sooner than too late or leads to more things breaking. Deferred maintenance is the worst. If this is not you, better go with the kiss philosophy and get a small, simple boat, that can sail okay, has some solar and most likely an o/b. In my observation nothing stops people more than engine problems and an inboard gone wrong can go on and on.

The last thing you say, so well put man!

Originally Posted by dwedeking2

Just finished reading "Desperate Voyage", young kids these days don't know how to screw up properly. Lol

In reality, youth of today are really at a disadvantage when it comes to fixing things. They just simply aren't taught the skills to troubleshoot, think about issues that may happen, or use tools. Their parents just hired out any repairs.

The anger shown on this thread is just people justifying the product (American dream) that they bought. "See I was right in putting my dreams on hold to fulfill societies requirements (house,kids,insurance to cover any risk,job) now that I've paid my dues (at the cost of a majority of their years) I can take a low-risk mini adventure"

Personally, I would rather have the .gov use all the money they steal from me each payday cleaning up boats from wanna be adventurers vs buying bombs, supporting inner-city baby factories, paying off congressional sex scandals, or subsidizing corporate greed.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by TreblePlink

It appears to me that the current mishap was caused by the captain .......

Captain?
Nah, just some Muppet on a boat.
Doubt he has any actual qualifications.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by sailorcherry

Whoa Dwed, true that!



You partly have to blame the whole Google age - why pick up a book to learn how to or look at what broke to see if you can figure out how to fix it when it's waaaay easier and much faster to ask Google (or YouTube)? I agree,

What?

You can't learn about keel bolts from google, only from books? In Gutenberg's days would you have complained about reading from printed books versus handwritten scrolls?

Little FYI, beyond cat memes the internet also contains basically a vast majority of the world's information from all medical journals to believe it or not probably the world's best sources for marine maintenance... don't blame google, blame the idiots that can't use it...

[dwedeking2]

My point was more that without previous experience you wouldn't know what to ask (regardless of the medium used to ask). For a lot of people (at least in the US) you run it til it stops then buy a new one. There's little thought to preventative maintenance or "what if" scenarios, both of which are learned traits.

[double u]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

What?

You can't learn about keel bolts from google, only from books? In Gutenberg's days would you have complained about reading from printed books versus handwritten scrolls?

Little FYI, beyond cat memes the internet also contains basically a vast majority of the world's information from all medical journals to believe it or not probably the world's best sources for marine maintenance... don't blame google, blame the idiots that can't use it...

absolutely! internet, google, all the digital "stuff" - they are tools, & excellent ones at that. but one can use the very best tool to botch a job or just cut off a finger! to obtain a tiny fraction of the technical, boatrelated information that I now can "dig up" in between answering jobrelated emails took the writing of letters, transatlantic phonecalls at odd times of the day (Austria here) & weeks of waiting for the books or magazines to arrive - back when I was building my boat in the late 70ies.
so sure, those poor kids, they don't have to ride horses any more, they can drive cars so it's our fault they are all overweight & undertrained...I accept full responsibility!
"fools & knaves" were "fools and knaves" back at Sokrates' times - & they still are

[double u]

Originally Posted by dwedeking2

My point was more that without previous experience you wouldn't know what to ask (regardless of the medium used to ask). For a lot of people (at least in the US) you run it til it stops then buy a new one. There's little thought to preventative maintenance or "what if" scenarios, both of which are learned traits.

I started "without previous experience" w h a t s o e v e r (Austria, remember!) in 1975 with this idea to sail to the "south seas" (friends, family, you name them, they thought I was a crazy idiot)- & we returned from our first rtw (of 3) on our selfbuilt boat in 1987.
It would be difficult to start less auspiciously than I did (I didn't even hav a well paid job, I was a teacher...), but with applying oneself, voraciously reading everything in english or german I could lay my hands on & then being ultracareful, bordering on the paranoid on the water we succeeded (ok., I'm a sort of kraut too, thoroughness & all, & "ve hafe vays")

[dwedeking2]

Originally Posted by double u

I started "without previous experience" w h a t s o e v e r (Austria, remember!) in 1975 with this idea to sail to the "south seas" (friends, family, you name them, they thought I was a crazy idiot)- & we returned from our first rtw (of 3) on our selfbuilt boat in 1987.
It would be difficult to start less auspiciously than I did (I didn't even hav a well paid job, I was a teacher...), but with applying oneself, voraciously reading everything in english or german I could lay my hands on & then being ultracareful, bordering on the paranoid on the water we succeeded (ok., I'm a sort of kraut too, thoroughness & all, & "ve hafe vays")

So you built a boat from scratch without previously doing any type of work with tools? Kudos to you.