Another Keel Lost; Another Capsize

[boatman61]

Yup.. not many reefs at 35000ft..

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by TreblePlink

It would seem so. I am studying marine navigation in finer detail. Trouble is, my navigation skills migrate from aviation, where nav data is pretty much single source, much more trustworthy, and aside from weather, has fewer hidden hazards.


Marine navigation has not evolved very much further than 1850 Mississippi river pilotage.

In aviation, what do you do when a mountain is permanently shrouded in clouds and shifts in both height and position after every storm?

In many ways marine navigation is much tougher...of course,i the engine conks out, you don't fall out of the sky..so there is that.

As to your question, if one of those sources indicate a problem, pursue the source and certainly don't try to wing it in bad conditions.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by TreblePlink

It would seem so. I am studying marine navigation in finer detail. Trouble is, my navigation skills migrate from aviation, where nav data is pretty much single source, much more trustworthy, and aside from weather, has fewer hidden hazards.


Marine navigation has not evolved very much further than 1850 Mississippi river pilotage.

Actually the last 25 years have pretty much revolutionized marine navigation. Sat images, ubiquitous GPS, low cost radar and chartplotters, downloadable charts - its all too easy these days

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Actually the last 25 years have pretty much revolutionized marine navigation. Sat images, ubiquitous GPS, low cost radar and chartplotters, downloadable charts - its all too easy these days

I'm not so sure we should even use the word navigation anymore, no one navigates..push a few buttons and watch the video screen.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by TreblePlink

It would seem so. I am studying marine navigation in finer detail. Trouble is, my navigation skills migrate from aviation, where nav data is pretty much single source, much more trustworthy, and aside from weather, has fewer hidden hazards.


Marine navigation has not evolved very much further than 1850 Mississippi river pilotage.

Gad my man..where do you get ideas like this...

[tdoster]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

Actually this is incorrect. They likely have already withdrawn the money. They can take out the money as soon as its donated without affecting the campaign, thereafter they can get daily deposits to their bank account for any new donations. It only takes 2-5 business days for the ACH transfer to process. They have the money available for salvage if they want to.

https://support.gofundme.com/hc/en-u...ng-Withdrawals

Also if you read the GoFundMe policies, the company itself is guaranteeing that the donation is used for the correct purpose. Unfortunately, they have an incentive to look the other way on this. If they agree that there were fraudulent actions, then the company would have to refund the givers. I'm not too hopeful that gofundme will do much, likely they will only refund the givers that complain. Please report the campaign if you donated.

Thank you for clarifying that.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I'm not so sure we should even use the word navigation anymore, no one navigates..push a few buttons and watch the video screen.

Aww... let them live with their delusions..

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Aww... let them live with their delusions..

that's the problem they have been allowed to for to long its time they ( and many others ) are introduced to the real world.

[TreblePlink]

>Marine navigation has not evolved very much further than 1850 Mississippi river pilotage.<

" Gad my man..where do you get ideas like this... "


Well, fer instance, without "local knowledge" (like a steamboat pilot learned each river bend during his cub days) many inlets are hazardous. I've heard of a sailboat sitting submerged in a shallow channel for two weeks without anybody putting a marker buoy on it.

GPS and moving maps are great, but if the map data is wrong and additional local knowledge is required ...

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by TreblePlink

Well, fer instance, without "local knowledge" (like a steamboat pilot learned each river bend during his cub days) many inlets are hazardous. I've heard of a sailboat sitting submerged in a shallow channel for two weeks without anybody putting a marker buoy on it.

GPS and moving maps are great, but if the map data is wrong and additional local knowledge is required ...

Modern crowd-sourced info like cruising guides or Active Captain can provide quite a bit of local knowledge, so that gap is closing too.

[TreblePlink]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Modern crowd-sourced info like cruising guides or Active Captain can provide quite a bit of local knowledge, so that gap is closing too.

Active captain and Navionics compiling submitted sonar plot data is good, but why aren't the primary NOAA map makers doing this?

[boatman61]

You guys think you have problems.. This area was full of buoyage and at night there were lights everywhere marking the many shifting sand bars and channels..
That was pre Tony Blair and Gordon Browns Labour Government stripped the budgets with foreign adventures like Iraq and Follies like new central NHS Central Data collection offices costing mega bucks and installing computors incompatible with any other computer system in the country.
Mid to late 90's the buoyage disappeared.. today there's maybe 20% of what there was and restricted to shipping channels and the last 500 or so yards into the many small ports scattered along the shores either side of the Estuary.
One navigates the area these days on rising tides and with care in small sailboats.. the Thames Estuary is not as it was.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by TreblePlink

It would seem so. I am studying marine navigation in finer detail. Trouble is, my navigation skills migrate from aviation, where nav data is pretty much single source, much more trustworthy, and aside from weather, has fewer hidden hazards.

Marine navigation has not evolved very much further than 1850 Mississippi river pilotage.

There are indeed many similarities between aviation and marine activities however as you have discovered, there are some differences. One big difference is that the marine environment changes far more often. The water scours new channels constantly. Buoys are moved, sometimes intentionally, and sometimes not. The list goes on.

[TreblePlink]

Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY

[ ... ] Buoys are moved, sometimes intentionally, and sometimes not. The list goes on.

It appears to me that the current mishap was caused by the captain seeing that the #3 Green marker was not in line with the other Greens, was not on the port side of the cut, and there was no Red marker to starboard of G3. He guessed the buoy had unintentionally moved, and proceeded to Port of it.


Primarily due to concealed underwater obstructions, marine navigation can be more complex than aviation. I just wish there was ONE authoritative and timely clearinghouse for "local knowledge"

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by TreblePlink

Active captain and Navionics compiling submitted sonar plot data is good, but why aren't the primary NOAA map makers doing this?

Budget, resources, commercial need, etc.

US charts are phenomenal! Try going places where the last survey was done by the admiralty in the 1800’s using midshipman to gather the sights!

Like another poster said, aviation charts don’t need to account for constantly moving sandbars. In places where commerce reigns channel maintenance is regular, charts are accurate.