About NOT power setting the anchor

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I really hate unknown-unknowns. They'll get you every time.
[clever phrase!]

So true... I try and remind myself of it all the time -- keeps me the humble, soft-spoken person that I am .

Originally Posted by thinwater

Some of my testing is done in an area with extremely consistent fine sand. I can get the same results over and over, year after year. I have another soft mud area like that, where I can return time and again and get the same numbers. Good for comparing anchors and investigating things like yawing or scope. If I measure the wind, depth, and wave height, I can know most of the variables.

It's an excellent experimental approach; keep the variables to a minimum, and keep them the same from anchor to anchor. This is a strength, but also a weakness, of all anchor tests.

In the real world we can't control for all these variables. As the unknown-unknowns phrase reminds me, often we can't even know what all the variables are. This is what makes anchoring both a science and an art. Sometimes you just gotta use the Force.

Originally Posted by thinwater

But those aren't the conditions where you drag, are they? It's that rock slab, tin can, or bunch of weed.

Ain't it the truth.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Panope

as the anchor continues to dive, the roll bar can (in some "cohesive" type substrates) contribute to a "blob" of seabed "marrying" itself to the anchor and then becoming disconnected from the surrounding seabed.

Seems like a reasonable assumption. But I would think that a mud-blob could change the shape of any anchor, not only roll-bar ones. I haven't had the opportunity to try so many types of anchors as you have, but have weighed a well-caked danforth in the past. Just going back to this:

Originally Posted by Panope

I have filmed many many instances of anchors with only a "moderate amount" of mud adhered to the FLUKE, that were hopelessly unable to reset.

I wonder if it's not so much the rollbar, but the convex fluke with rough galvanized surface that contributes to the mud sticking. I've noticed that the galvanized and alloy Spades have shiny yellow paint on the top-side of the fluke, which might assist in shedding the mud (the shiny stainless version doesn't get painted).

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I'm confused.



You say power setting isn't needed but then give an excellent example of a situation where it likely saved you from dragging in the middle of the night.



I'd much prefer being embarrassed struggling to get a good set than have a totally non-embarrassing episode of dragging at 2am when no one is around to watch your boat run up on the rocks.

Sorry- I wasn’t clear. In normal conditions, a power set isn’t necessary - anchors set themselves- agree with chotu.
My main reason to back down on the anchor is to test substrate, not to set anchor per se. Anchors will set themselves, but if you don’t try to back on them you’ll never know about the rare exception where you land on something foul.

And reconciling Chotus real world assertions with our examples (log, shopping cart, beach chair)- that night I snagged the log, it was a typically benign night- so the piling would have held me just fine.
Line up probability of an overnight squall with rare chance of a good anchor not setting, and it’s very small odds. Which I’m not willing to take so I set my anchor (though moderately not heavily)

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Sorry- I wasn’t clear. In normal conditions, a power set isn’t necessary - anchors set themselves- agree with chotu.
My main reason to back down on the anchor is to test substrate, not to set anchor per se. Anchors will set themselves, but if you don’t try to back on them you’ll never know about the rare exception where you land on something foul.

And reconciling Chotus real world assertions with our examples (log, shopping cart, beach chair)- that night I snagged the log, it was a typically benign night- so the piling would have held me just fine.
Line up probability of an overnight squall with rare chance of a good anchor not setting, and it’s very small odds. Which I’m not willing to take so I set my anchor (though moderately not heavily)

Agree totally!

[malbert73]

What’s also interesting about anchors is what’s interesting to me about data in my career as a physician. Things that make sense in theory, like fish oil capsules to prevent heart disease, actually in studies seem to be ineffective and even possibly harmful. Hence medicine’s reliance on data and outcomes rather than theory.
So, actual data points like Thinwater, Panope, and Noelex have provided are so helpful.
And based on that I think there 3 main domains of anchor data we should focus on:
1. ease of setting,
2. resetting ability
3. ultimate holding power

the 2 anchors I carry are an oversized Mantus (primary) and an oversized fortress (stored). Most data seems to suggest Mantus is a star at #1-2 above and fortress is always the winner for #3 but struggles with 1-2. I think #3 is the rarest need and #1 is most common and helpful in day to day anchoring. Hence so many folks like me are super happy with a Mantus and even oversize it to add to it’s ability to meet #3

[boat driver]

and this is why there are so mannny anchor types. everyone has an opinion.

[Perfect Ride]

thin sand layer on rock slab when there is no wind or current... I would like to know there is no possibility of setting prior to leaving to shore...

[DHLyman]

Dump all the chain on top of the anchor you just threw over the side? Are you nuts?
So the chain winds up sitting in top of the chain, wraps around it, fouls it so that all that’s holding in place is the shear weight of the anchor and chain. Is that your technique,
Not mine. Deploy the anchor while the boat is moving, slowly, so the chain lays down on the ocean floor. Different anchors have different ways of setting. Power set is fine if the anchor has set. How to tell that? With a bare foot on the chain you can feel the vibration as the anchor skids along the bottom or begins to dig in and set.
I could go on. You

[capn_billl]

I don't necessarily "power set", but I like to go into reverse, and check the anchor line. It should be a as tight as a guitar string. It I can pull it, the anchor isn't set.

[Martin Sea]

As I have understood so far it helps to avoid setting the anchor again in worse condition.Who likes to get up at night/in strong winds to re-check the setting????Space can be limited by other boats to set the anchor again nicely,also it makes the skipper aware of eventual weak/damaged pieces.
Do you test the moorings also with the engine?
Would make sense to me.

[Sailing Ohm]

At the advise of many lifelong cruisers, both verbally and in cruising books, I almost never power set the anchor and have yet to have an issue in S Fl in over 3 years. Have only done it once in a calm bay with no wind or current to speak of where it was probably unnecessary.

Part of people’s problem is technique. If you simply disengage your windlass and free fall drop your anchor with 100’ of chain on top your anchor will never set without the use of the engine to untangle all that chain you just dropped in a big tangled pile.

When you drop anchor SLOWLY lay out a 2:1 or 3:1 scope. As the boat drifts back with wind and current your anchor (supposing you have a decent anchor rated for the bottom and your boat) will dig in. Once this happens again SLOWLY lay out the rest of your desired scope.

Now of course this technique requires the sailor to be both present and patient which isn’t many people’s strength. It also requires them to have ground tackle that is actually rated for their boat (something that unfortunately many boaters don’t have - just walk any marina and you’ll see this)

I do have to say that from an environmental stand point power setting can be disastrous. Many places in S Fl are switching to mooring fields to avoid the long scours caused by anchoring attempts. Nothing worse for our poor sea grasses than a boater plowing the bottom at full throttle. I’m reminded of one guy who dragged his undersized SS delta anchor (not a fan of this anchor either...it’s a plow and does what plows are supposed to do) over 1/4mile across the anchorage before claiming the bottom was crap and left.

I use a 55lb mantus anchor (on a 37’ boat) and dive on it after every deployment (another tried and true technique). I have yet to have an instance where the mantus hasn’t set almost immediately and we have never dragged.

Again people it’s all about technique and being adequately prepared.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by malbert73

What’s also interesting about anchors is what’s interesting to me about data in my career as a physician. Things that make sense in theory, like fish oil capsules to prevent heart disease, actually in studies seem to be ineffective and even possibly harmful. Hence medicine’s reliance on data and outcomes rather than theory.
So, actual data points like Thinwater, Panope, and Noelex have provided are so helpful.
And based on that I think there 3 main domains of anchor data we should focus on:
1. ease of setting,
2. resetting ability
3. ultimate holding power

the 2 anchors I carry are an oversized Mantus (primary) and an oversized fortress (stored). Most data seems to suggest Mantus is a star at #1-2 above and fortress is always the winner for #3 but struggles with 1-2. I think #3 is the rarest need and #1 is most common and helpful in day to day anchoring. Hence so many folks like me are super happy with a Mantus and even oversize it to add to it’s ability to meet #3

For whatever it's worth, I have a lot of experience with Fortress and always found it fine for ease of setting. Like with all anchors there are some bottom types which it doesn't like (e.g. weed), but average setting behavior of Fortress I find superior to most other anchors. I use mine as a stern anchor in Baltic mooring, where it needs to instantly grab (when you moor like that, you toss it overboard off the stern as you nose into the pier or rock), and it does this admirably. I don't think I've ever had a fail in fact.



As to Mantus, I never heard that there is anything second rate about it in terms of ultimate holding power. Pound for pound it won't hold as much as a Fortress, but no anchor will. Just size it correctly (one or two sizes oversized) and Mantus is fine in this department.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Sailing Ohm

At the advise of many lifelong cruisers, both verbally and in cruising books, I almost never power set the anchor and have yet to have an issue in S Fl in over 3 years. Have only done it once in a calm bay with no wind or current to speak of where it was probably unnecessary.

Part of people’s problem is technique. If you simply disengage your windlass and free fall drop your anchor with 100’ of chain on top your anchor will never set without the use of the engine to untangle all that chain you just dropped in a big tangled pile.

When you drop anchor SLOWLY lay out a 2:1 or 3:1 scope. As the boat drifts back with wind and current your anchor (supposing you have a decent anchor rated for the bottom and your boat) will dig in. Once this happens again SLOWLY lay out the rest of your desired scope.

Now of course this technique requires the sailor to be both present and patient which isn’t many people’s strength. It also requires them to have ground tackle that is actually rated for their boat (something that unfortunately many boaters don’t have - just walk any marina and you’ll see this)

I do have to say that from an environmental stand point power setting can be disastrous. Many places in S Fl are switching to mooring fields to avoid the long scours caused by anchoring attempts. Nothing worse for our poor sea grasses than a boater plowing the bottom at full throttle. I’m reminded of one guy who dragged his undersized SS delta anchor (not a fan of this anchor either...it’s a plow and does what plows are supposed to do) over 1/4mile across the anchorage before claiming the bottom was crap and left.

I use a 55lb mantus anchor (on a 37’ boat) and dive on it after every deployment. I have yet to have an instance where the mantus hasn’t set almost immediately and we have never dragged.

Again people it’s all about technique and being adequately prepared.

I disagree. It is not only a question of technique. It's a question of how the bottom is, and whether you're fouled on anything.

If you dive on your anchor every single time I guess this is OK, but if you neither power set NOR dive on the anchor, then you are playing anchor roulette. You have no idea whether the anchor is set, whether it's fouled on something, or whether it will hold. As others have written -- power setting the anchor is not so much for the purpose of setting it (nature will often do that), as it is for the purpose of checking the set and being sure that you are really stuck in.

In my opinion it is extremely bad seamanship to anchor without verifying the set in one way or another, no matter how good you think your "technique" is. No amount of technique will overcome a fouled anchor or a bad bottom.

Not having an issue over only 3 years proves nothing -- it's like smoking for three years and not getting cancer, and declaring that therefore smoking is safe. Not power setting the anchor (or at least diving on it) is the anchoring equivalent of smoking 3 packs a day. It might not kill you immediately, but it will surely catch up with you one day.

[Mike OReilly]

When I power-set my anchor, I slowly lay things out as described, but eventually get to the point where my boat is being held in place against a 2000 RPM reverse thrust on my Perkins 4108 (40hp). At this speed my 3/8" chain is fully taut and lifted to it's hypotenuse angle.

This does not bury the anchor, but it definitely gets it partially so. As I describe, this process sets the anchor, and begins the digging-in process. High winds and currents will (hopefully) do the rest, but at least I am confident that the set can hold to a significant degree.

Mine is not a large engine, and chain is not light, yet I don't have any problems achieving this fully taut level. I can see this being impossible for smaller boats with smaller engines (although you'd also likely have lighter rode), but many here are saying they can't achieve this level of set with their engines, so why bother.

Is this really the case?

[jrau18]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

In my mind, it's better to give it a good power set. Not because it necessarily has a positive impact on later performance, but because it tests the bottom. A good power set confirms that in the current bottom, the anchor was able to set and develop at least some known quantity of holding power. That gives me confidence in its later behavior.

First response gives exactly my thoughts, too.

If it doesn't set easily, i pull and move to another area. If it sets immediately, it probably will reset without fouling, too.

This is assuming i can't drive the anchor. If i can dive the anchor, that's the first choice. If i can dive the anchor, then i can make sure there is good bottom for at least 30 feet in every direction, to be confident it can trip and reset any direction.