Which came first, the chicken or the egg

[Papasail]

I have been studying sailboats in preparation for liveaboard (actual world sailing/ not docked) for about 8 years... I felt pretty good about my knowledge level until this anvil fell out of the sky onto my head:

Purchase: looking at Bristols $150,000 max.
I'm having fits over the size of sailboat related to (maintenance costs) & (singlehanding) ~ both common areas of concern. But 47' max, nothing bigger, for sure. Mostly me, maybe a married (me), so (1) person always/ maybe (2), adult kids come for a few summers, so then (4) infrequently, (6 total) rarely.

So here we go:

Family Trust can buy sailboat outright.
Trust wants to ensure collateral/ property.
Therefore, even when bought outright, insurance must be comprehensive.
Single-handers expecting to cross oceans can't become insured, especially those with no experience.
No insurance.... no sailboat, or worse still for someone with world-traveling aspirations, I'll
effectively be tied to a U.S. dock.

current skill level (zero).
desire to sail as a liveaboard (100%) no illusions

How do liveaboards fix this, since there are healthy numbers of single-handers?

I've been at this a long time, only to find out that it's just not feasible?

Bill

[44'cruisingcat]

Get additional crew for ocean crossings.

[weavis]

Yup. a recognised (by insurers) Captain can sign for the trip, (er... go with him!) and some can even certify you on certain tickets.. the hours will count toward experience.

Take courses. here in the UK yachtmasters theory and yachmasters offshore goes a long way.

All good.

[jimbunyard]

Good lord...by all means, stay home.

[Jim Cate]

How do liveaboards fix this, since there are healthy numbers of single-handers?

Well, some sailors start out with smaller boats, ones that they can afford to sail without hull insurance. They build years and miles of experience and develop the skills that will convince insurers to cover them when they change up to a larger and more capable yacht, or undertake passages single handed.

It is not all that reasonable to expect insurers to cover folks with little experience or track record. I, as an experienced cruiser, would not wish to use an insurer that would do so, for the higher casualty rate in such customers would result in higher premiums for me.

Jim

[GILow]

47 feet and a current skill level of “zero”. Well... Full points for honesty.


“I felt pretty good about my knowledge level...”. How the heck does THAT statement fit with the zero skill level statement?

Family Trust may need to reconsider its investment outlook.

[GordMay]

I know of know no company that will agree to insure a vessel that is single handed for long passages.
Several yacht insurance companies will provide an annual policy that will include Transatlantic and Transpacific navigation. They usually require up to date surveys, including an up to date rigging inspection for sailing vessels.
Crew requirements are generally a minimum of three experienced sailors aboard, that have prior blue water experience.

[john61ct]

over eight years lots of sailing experience

coulda woulda shoulda been accumulated

by hook or crook, own initiative, starting with a little trailer sailor, a few lessons, etc

A beginner getting a 47' boat handed to them would be a breach of trust

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Papasail

How do liveaboards fix this, since there are healthy numbers of single-handers?

They start by starting (sailing) and not starting with visions of crossing the world.

Get some experience and training, get a boat (you will be able to insure it for cruising even if there are limits/requirements), go sailing, when you have enough experience and the time comes to do this big "world" sailing you will probably be able to get insurance for that.

BTW - finding insurance isn't all that hard, someone will be willing to provide it with a big enough premium

[Papasail]

Very appreciative of those who came with straightforward information. As a divorced father in Arkansas, I have remained landlocked for the love of my children/ last one is 17. Short of my 22' sailboat on a local lake, there is no way to gain experience until the full leap is made. No one was born knowing how to sail, or worse, understanding the red-tape involved, so don't begrudge my lack of experience too harshly. I have spent 8 years (learning), and that might indicate some dedication. Getting the lay-of-the-land/ (sea?) can be difficult. And transition from landlubber to liveaboard is daunting, to say the least. Knowing "how it's usually done," can... errr... be helpful, when you've never done it, or don't really have direct access to people who do. I thank all who gave me rote information: basics are basics, and when you're just learning, these questions become critical. Please feel free to keep talking, for me, this conversation can be a tremendous guide in developing a more proper - if not more routine - strategy. I am incredibly self-sufficient, and it's good to know from more proper old salts, how the more explicit details of life aboard as a single-hander works.
*Keep talkin!
* Finding blue-water crew sounds like an entirely new and fresh nightmare... feel free to connect the dots between ownership, having a house on water, perfect strangers on board, and insuring (all). (whewph!!!).

Do other countries actually check to see if you have insurance on entry?

Thanks all...
Bill

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Papasail

* Finding blue-water crew sounds like an entirely new and fresh nightmare...

Not my experience at all. Crew are potential new lifelong friends who may go on to do more on boats than you’ve even dreamed of.

[billknny]

Originally Posted by GordMay

I know of know no company that will agree to insure a vessel that is single handed for long passages.
Several yacht insurance companies will provide an annual policy that will include Transatlantic and Transpacific navigation. They usually require up to date surveys, including an up to date rigging inspection for sailing vessels.
Crew requirements are generally a minimum of three experienced sailors aboard, that have prior blue water experience.

Gord,

You might need to update and broaden your knowledge base a LOT. When we were last shopping, we looked at several companies specializing in cruising yacht insurance. Not one required three crew--for anything. Just our sample.

It is actually very easy to find insurance for doublehanded crossings. At least one policy did not address crew size at all. Of course like everything insurance, it depends a lot on the boat and the whims of the underwriter.

When you write something like "Crew requirements are generally a minimum of three experienced sailors aboard, that have prior blue water experience." even though you qualify it a bit, people accept it as absolutely true in all cases, and it is very much NOT.

[billknny]

Originally Posted by Papasail

....Finding blue-water crew sounds like an entirely new and fresh nightmare... feel free to connect the dots between ownership, having a house on water, perfect strangers on board, and insuring (all). (whewph!!!).

Do other countries actually check to see if you have insurance on entry?

We double hand ocean passages without extra crew, and it is not required by our insurance company. We have never taken strangers on aboard, and never will. Even with friends we are highly selective about who we take along. We don't single hand, and never would. Each of those decisions you have to make for yourself. But the idea that insurance is NOT available for crews of less than three people is just plain WRONG!!!!

We have yet to check into a country that required insurance, although some do. Mexico for example, requires you to have LOCAL liability coverage. If you don't have that lined up before you arrive, be prepared to be gouged for it.

On the other hand, every marina or boatyard we have ever visited anywhere insisted on seeing proof of insurance coverage. Some liability only, some also for full hull coverage.

This really isn't as hard as the posts here lead you to think. You take sailing/seamanship lessons from a good school with good instructors. Pick one that has a reputation fror being tough, and not passing students just because they paid their money. You buy a boat. You sail locally. Insurance will be easy to get, even for USA coastal trips. You can do that without the school part, but it's not smart...

Geico, Progressive, Boat US, and many others will all be happy to help. Typically their policies cover you up to 75 miles from the US coast, although it varies. After a few years--without claims--you'll find the offshore insurance companies will be happy to talk to you about covering more ambitious trips.

Learning to make a boat go with sails is easy. Learning to make good decisions in all conditions and keep boat and people safe is the hard part. That's what takes study, experience and "judgement." I know lots of really good sailors I would never cross an ocean with because they are deficient in seamanship skills and judgement. I know a few excellent seaman who's sailing chops are weak. I'll go anywhere with them.

[weavis]

My gentle offer of a suggestion is to base yourself on the east coast of Florida and sail out to the Bahamas to get the feel of the boat and sailing. Leave world travel until you are competent and experienced enough to do so.

Do not leave catamarans out of your search criteria. Excellent and stable sea platforms despite the naysayers.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Papasail

Very appreciative of those who came with straightforward information. As a divorced father in Arkansas, I have remained landlocked for the love of my children/ last one is 17. Short of my 22' sailboat on a local lake, there is no way to gain experience until the full leap is made. No one was born knowing how to sail, or worse, understanding the red-tape involved, so don't begrudge my lack of experience too harshly. I have spent 8 years (learning), and that might indicate some dedication. Getting the lay-of-the-land/ (sea?) can be difficult. And transition from landlubber to liveaboard is daunting, to say the least. Knowing "how it's usually done," can... errr... be helpful, when you've never done it, or don't really have direct access to people who do. I thank all who gave me rote information: basics are basics, and when you're just learning, these questions become critical. Please feel free to keep talking, for me, this conversation can be a tremendous guide in developing a more proper - if not more routine - strategy. I am incredibly self-sufficient, and it's good to know from more proper old salts, how the more explicit details of life aboard as a single-hander works.
*Keep talkin!
* Finding blue-water crew sounds like an entirely new and fresh nightmare... feel free to connect the dots between ownership, having a house on water, perfect strangers on board, and insuring (all). (whewph!!!).

Do other countries actually check to see if you have insurance on entry?

Thanks all...
Bill

Hi Bill,

I went through a similar process. Had zero sailing experience and in fact never even saw the ocean until I was in high school. Long story short, fell into a delivery to the Bahamas with a couple of friends and got the bug, bad.

Got back to GA and started reading every book and magazine I could get that had anything to do with any aspect of boating. Did another delivery so a total of about 4 weeks on the water then got a job running a boat for an absentee owner and spent the next two years on board. I went into it with a LOT of book knowledge but as you see, very little hands on. Definitely made a few mistakes, some pretty significant but managed to live through it an didn't even kill any crew members.

So I think a competent and motivated person can get into a bigger boat with limited experience but definitely with higher odds of a problem that one with more on the water time.

If you can I highly recommend taking a crew spot with experienced skippers like on a delivery from the VI to New England.

Also, regarding crew, for a few years I did deliveries, mainly US to the Bahamas and VI but a few longer trips. I was always looking for crew and several times took on friends of friends and often people with zero boating experience. With careful vetting only had one crew that didn't work out.