Refit...Why So Slow?

[rbk]

I don't know about boat refits, but I do know about remodeling a house as We've redone 90% of our house by ourselves. As an example, in one room we stripped everything to the bare 2 x 4's... moved electrical outlets, ran wires for a home theatre, added a wall.. put in a corner fireplace, dropped a ceiling in one area, built in a book shelf on one wall, and along one whole wall (a run of 20 or more feet) built, by hand, a wall of cabinets and shelves, including window pane doors, and fancy moldings... re insulated, put up all new drywall, floated it ourselves, added canister lighting, layer a hardwood floor and all new moldings.. painted.... all of that only took us a couple of months working on nights and weekends...

So, why is refitting a boat so much more time consuming?

To put it into context...why did it take you two months to do two weeks worth of work? Two weeks is being generous btw.

[nautitrix]

MISSION CREEP As my loving wife says "it's not that three things need to be done to do one job, it's that each of those three things need three things done before you can get to the three things that need to be done to do the job you are working on". IE. replace the focsle berth foams and include vapour ventilation. First determine what foam combination will be comfortable and dry for a few years. Make up the order and wait for same. Mark the curve to the hull side 5 inches up from the base of the berth. Mark the shifting bevel to match the changing curve of the hull. Cut foam to these specs. Cut foam again. install underside ventilation matrix, cut batting and reset foam. Fit is good so glue foam to itself and batting to ventilation matrix put bedding on and sleep. Finished on the morning of the third day after foam is fitted.
Oh yeah, we are living aboard so in between every step you have to re-oranize the boat so you can get at the job, dismantle the bed, and dry out the foam because an unexpected shower happened late on day one and your foam was outside for 1/2 hour, then put it back together so you can sleep on it for the third time.
I really don't understand why it takes so long to do a refit but it takes weeks just to make The DAMN bed!!!!

[valhalla360]

Here's an example: Changed out the hot water heater in the house. Took about 2 hours. I was able to stand next to it. It was easy to reach everything. If I could sweat a pipe to save my life, it would have been under an hour.

Changed the hot water heater on the boat.
- After an hour lying across the uncomfortable engine reaching as far as I could, I got 2 of the bolts holding it down broken off but at least they were off.
- After another 20 minutes, of maneuvering, straining and using extensions, I realized, there was no way, I was going to reach it.
- Showed it to the other half and spent a half hour convincing her, she could slide over the engine into the open space on the far side (no way my fat butt was going to fit).
- 15 minutes for her to change into something scruffy and then squirm over the engine.
- Half hour later with much explaination and grumbling, the last bolt is off.
- 15 mintues to manuver the old tank around the front of the engine and out.
- At this point, she is done being in a tight claustrophobic space and wants to come out for a bit before squeezing the new tank into place.
- OOPS.... She squeezed in but keeps getting hung up trying to climb out.
- 20 minutes changing into just a swimsuit in the hopes that it eliminate the snags.
- She's really not happy now.
- No luck with the swim suit. Still stuck.
- Wait, maybe if I pull the muffler she can slide around the back of the engine...there goes another 30 minutes.
- She still can't quite get out, so now the exhaust elbow has to come off.
- Dang the bolts don't want to come off. Another 15 minutes fighting with those.
- The bolts are off but the exhaust elbow isn't budging.
- She's starting to panic now and I'm thinking a saws-all to cut out part of the deck.
- Finally the exhaust elbow pops free and she squeezes out...to the applause of the peanut gallery who had gathered for the show.
- At that point, we closed up the engine hatches and called it a day.

[44'cruisingcat]

I'm working on a refit just now. (Not our boat) New engines, plus new engine mounting system, new targa, foredeck alterations, new helm position, and a respray.

Apart from paint, none of these jobs is applicable to a house. And getting a boat prepped for a respray is a far bigger job than getting a house ready for paint.

[dwedeking2]

Originally Posted by james247

One has to ask the question what do these people who spend years refitting prefer to do Sail or work on a boat.

In my case I have a few years before I retire. I could have saved money and bought a "ready to go" boat closer to retirement that I hoped was really ready to go or jumped at a project-priced boat that gives me something to do that I can live on and day sail now. But I know it will be "ready to go" when I retire (as I will have worked on all the systems)

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by james247

One has to ask the question what do these people who spend years refitting prefer to do Sail or work on a boat.
When one refirbishs a house the project is planned and fully funded before you start. You employ the trades necessary and away you go.
I admit to enjoying refurbishing a boat.
I have also built and refurbished some 24 houses and commercial premises. Doing this I don't even get to touch a screw drive or a hammer.
The eight boats I have owned were all wrecks when I bought them. As I am a project manager by profession I plan plan and plan. I can be sailing in a couple of weeks. I like to sail. I do all of the preparation work myself. I prefer to use a marine electrician to do the electrical works. I take out the headlining and run the appropriately sized cables the electrician sets up the charging system the batteries the switching and electronics. Everything works. Rigging is done by a rigger. Engine is done by an engineer.
I am the trade assistant and do all the fiddly work and painting.
I like to trade boats at a profit after I've enjoyed sailing them for several years. A boat with a track record impresses the next owner. A boat where everything works!
I find a lot of people who fiddle with boats for years have little or no sailing experience. Generally they don't like their wife and treat the boat as a mistress without being unfaithful

You can plan all you want to in Central America, but the plan wont match reality.

[Suijin]

Having renovated a house myself and gone through a major refit on my boat, I’m intimately familiar with both. There is no comparison.

A house is infinitely simpler than a boat. It’s almost like LEGO. A room is a box of Sheetrock, almost entirely standardized in design and construction. A boat is a whole integrated machine, non-standardized.

I’ll echo all the reasons listed and add that during a major refit your projects multiply like rabbits. Because if you don’t do I then, doing it later is 3x as much work.

For example I’m finishing a deck refit, which required disassembly of the interior headliner. With it all down, it was a good time to add new wiring and insulation. There is no standard “boat insulation”. You can’t just unroll a standardized roll of pink that is made to fit between standardized studs. Had to research the right material then custom cut a zillion pieces to fit between the headliner cleats. Probably 20 hours in a project that would take half a day in a house. And that was just one of a hundred small “add on” projects.

[bletso]

James24-

It must be nice to have the 'where with all' to hire out a lot of work. Many sailors are not so fortunate or there are not the tradesman to do the job to their satisfaction. There is also the sense of accomplishment in doing a job right. I do all my own work and am more or less a jack of all trades although I have hired out projects where I don't have the tools to do the job, mostly a few items for a machine shop.
I suspect that if you take into account your 'planning time' and the time to find and hire out work you aren't any further ahead in time than a lot of us.

I did find this comment, "I find a lot of people who fiddle with boats for years have little or no sailing experience. Generally they don't like their wife and treat the boat as a mistress without being unfaithful", somewhat disingenuous. Perhaps it's the crowd you hang around with.

[AKA-None]

And lastly, a messed up house project usually leaves your house right where you left it ; at the same sea level.

[scarlet]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

One thing I have learned in boating. It takes all your extra time just to maintain a boat that doesn't need a refit. Think slowly and deeply before taking a refit on. Paying many thousands more for a ready-to-use boat is far cheaper then rebuilding one.
I did finish a new 31 ft boat from hull and deck in about 2.5 years. The main bulkheads and engine were installed and the boat was outside my back door at home. It cost me a marriage though.

Cheechako... absolutely gorgeous... beautiful work.

[scarlet]

Originally Posted by bletso

James24-

It must be nice to have the 'where with all' to hire out a lot of work.

I just wanted to mention... the problem with "contracting" work.. is that, basically, I've found that contractors suck.. (referring to the kind that work on houses). Whilst my husband was deployed, I did a partial remodel in my kitchen and small master bath. There was some heavy work that I just simply couldn't do myself due to my stature. So, I had to hire it out. VERY expensive, and whilst the contractors were highly recommended. There were about a dozen things that I had to "fix" or "redo"... the reason I've done so much of the remodeling in my house, is that no one loves your house like you do... contractors just care about getting the job done fast, so they can move on to the next project. I found that, even though it took a lot of work, practice, research, etc... I did an exponentially better job than any contractor I hired. I imagine it is the same with a boat.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Here's an example: Changed out the hot water heater in the house. Took about 2 hours. I was able to stand next to it. It was easy to reach everything. If I could sweat a pipe to save my life, it would have been under an hour.

Changed the hot water heater on the boat.
- After an hour lying across the uncomfortable engine reaching as far as I could, I got 2 of the bolts holding it down broken off but at least they were off.
- After another 20 minutes, of maneuvering, straining and using extensions, I realized, there was no way, I was going to reach it.
- Showed it to the other half and spent a half hour convincing her, she could slide over the engine into the open space on the far side (no way my fat butt was going to fit).
- 15 minutes for her to change into something scruffy and then squirm over the engine.
- Half hour later with much explaination and grumbling, the last bolt is off.
- 15 mintues to manuver the old tank around the front of the engine and out.
- At this point, she is done being in a tight claustrophobic space and wants to come out for a bit before squeezing the new tank into place.
- OOPS.... She squeezed in but keeps getting hung up trying to climb out.
- 20 minutes changing into just a swimsuit in the hopes that it eliminate the snags.
- She's really not happy now.
- No luck with the swim suit. Still stuck.
- Wait, maybe if I pull the muffler she can slide around the back of the engine...there goes another 30 minutes.
- She still can't quite get out, so now the exhaust elbow has to come off.
- Dang the bolts don't want to come off. Another 15 minutes fighting with those.
- The bolts are off but the exhaust elbow isn't budging.
- She's starting to panic now and I'm thinking a saws-all to cut out part of the deck.
- Finally the exhaust elbow pops free and she squeezes out...to the applause of the peanut gallery who had gathered for the show.
- At that point, we closed up the engine hatches and called it a day.

Perfect example of boat work! .... and you have only removed the bad one so far! Dont worry, the new one will be just slightly larger and wont go in at all!

[boatpoker]

Surveyed a 50' Beneteau a few years back. One of the findings was that improper installation had caused severe corrosion and that the heater would not last long. A few days later I saw the broker (yes ! the broker) coming down the dock with a reciprocating saw to cut the water heater out. Then the plumbing had to done over because a new heater could not be fit into the old space (at least not in one piece ).

[Teknishn]

Why so slow? For all of the reasons previously stated...and then some.

From a slightly different perspective, I am a Marine Electrician and having been involved in refits of a few boats and yachts over the years, I've learned that sometimes the boat/yacht owners themselves can be faulted for slowing down a refit. This is oft-times due to lack of knowledge on their part, inadequate planning, unrealistic goals/expectations or indecision as to what they, and in some cases..their spouses, want or desire.

As an example: Was working on a 40-meter yacht as the Engineer a few years ago and after 2-weeks waiting for bathroom fixtures to arrive (taps, towel bars, toilet paper holders, etc.), spent a long day/night installing them in 6 heads on the yacht. The next morning the owner's wife arrives and informs me that she was not consulted on the fixtures and ordered me to remove them, which I spent another day doing. 2-weeks later replacements arrive which the owner and his wife have finally agreed upon. Installation took another 3-weeks due to having to fill/hide/repair/replace head bulkheads (carpentry work), and to order and replace Corian countertops. So, 7-weeks just to install bathroom fixtures! I don't even want to think about the additional cost of that installation!

And finally, and this is from an installer's point-of-view, if your refit is going to take longer than 6-months? Don't purchase your electronics prior to the refit unless you are absolutely sure that that is what you want and are going to stick with it. Have seen too many cases where electronics were pre-purchased and then something newer/fancier/better comes along and the owner decides that what was pre-purchased is now obsolete. Waste of money, time, and is frustrating for all involved.

Just my 2-cents worth....
Best to All

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Teknishn

Why so slow? For all of the reasons previously stated...and then some.

From a slightly different perspective, I am a Marine Electrician and having been involved in refits of a few boats and yachts over the years, I've learned that sometimes the boat/yacht owners themselves can be faulted for slowing down a refit. This is oft-times due to lack of knowledge on their part, inadequate planning, unrealistic goals/expectations or indecision as to what they, and in some cases..their spouses, want or desire.

As an example: Was working on a 40-meter yacht as the Engineer a few years ago and after 2-weeks waiting for bathroom fixtures to arrive (taps, towel bars, toilet paper holders, etc.), spent a long day/night installing them in 6 heads on the yacht. The next morning the owner's wife arrives and informs me that she was not consulted on the fixtures and ordered me to remove them, which I spent another day doing. 2-weeks later replacements arrive which the owner and his wife have finally agreed upon. Installation took another 3-weeks due to having to fill/hide/repair/replace head bulkheads (carpentry work), and to order and replace Corian countertops. So, 7-weeks just to install bathroom fixtures! I don't even want to think about the additional cost of that installation!

And finally, and this is from an installer's point-of-view, if your refit is going to take longer than 6-months? Don't purchase your electronics prior to the refit unless you are absolutely sure that that is what you want and are going to stick with it. Have seen too many cases where electronics were pre-purchased and then something newer/fancier/better comes along and the owner decides that what was pre-purchased is now obsolete. Waste of money, time, and is frustrating for all involved.

Just my 2-cents worth....
Best to All

All that and they cheaped out with Corian !