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Old 26-01-2018, 10:42   #16
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Re: Refit...Why So Slow?

I think the number one reason is money.

With an unlimited budget, you can pay a nice yard a whole ton of money and tell them I need it by x date. You'll still get it by y date, but it will be done much faster than if you work like me:

Start taking apart something on deck, realize you forgot the pliers, go down below for pliers, come back up on deck, a friend comes by on a sailing dinghy. Cool! Go sailing with friend on sailing dinghy, start drinking beer with friend... and so on...
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Old 26-01-2018, 10:45   #17
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Re: Refit...Why So Slow?

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Originally Posted by scarlet View Post
Just out of genuine curiosity......

I don't know about boat refits, but I do know about remodeling a house as We've redone 90% of our house by ourselves. As an example, in one room we stripped everything to the bare 2 x 4's... put up all new drywall, floated it ourselves, added canister lighting, layer a hardwood floor and all new moldings.. painted.... all of that only took us a couple of months working on nights and weekends...
Let's add a couple of issues to your room refit. Let's put your house up a hill that requires you to leave your truck down at the road, walk up a bendy little path for 10 minutes (carrying everything you need). And the room you need to rebuild is on the second floor, but the stairs are too small to get wall sheet up. So you have to put up at the least a ladder outside, but probably a scaffold so you can carry each sheet up. Oh and let's just suppose that it's your cabin at the mountain type house and there's no timber/hardware merchant within 50km and it's a 2 hour drive from where you live. You daren't leave your tools at your cabin because the area is notorious for thieves, and you only have a generator for power.

Your boss tells you Johnny in accounts has been in a car crash and would you mind doing some weekend hours for the next few weekends. Your sister's just announced she's getting married at the end of the month and you have to come to the wedding out of state.

I'm trying to portray that access and materials are real issues, as is your time. An example; a guy I know doing a refit has his boat on a mooring (not a marina and marina's are expensive, especially hard stands). So just to work on his boat he rows out on a dinghy, motors the boat back to a vacant jetty spot where he has a little lock up shed. And of course he has to do the reverse at the end of the day. For a long time the engine didn't go so he towed the boat with his dinghy. It's not far, say a footy field length with obstacles, but this all soaks up time. Car parking there is also very congested so much of the time we have a long walk back and forth.
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Old 26-01-2018, 10:51   #18
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Re: Refit...Why So Slow?

Scarlet, every post here pretty much sums it up. However, I will add one more. Unless one has a very big boat, in order to work on practically anything one has twist their body into the shape of a pretzel, work on something, and then unfold to just reach up for another tool. All of this takes time.

We have restored old houses and even though it took time, it was a lot easier than refitting our sailboat.
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Old 26-01-2018, 10:53   #19
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Re: Refit...Why So Slow?

Then you always seem to forget something or need more of whatever it is.
This begins
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Old 26-01-2018, 10:54   #20
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Re: Refit...Why So Slow?

If you want some time involved with projects look up Tim Lackey Northern Yacht restoration. He puts a time to every day's project. All the above answers are pretty much right. I often tell people boats have all the systems of a house and a car rolled into something that's supposed to be watertight on the top and bottom. Also while there are lots of things on a house that are standardized that gets alot more questionable on a boat.

To add to the list thing.

329: Boat interior and mechanical systems are often fully installed before the deck is installed. Make it a bit tricky to replace certain parts.
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Old 26-01-2018, 11:13   #21
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Re: Refit...Why So Slow?

When "refitting" a house you just run to the hardware store. Refitting a boat in a remote location means shipping stuff in and waiting for it to arrive, then it gets held up in Customs, then you need to arrange local transport....a month later, you have your parts!
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Old 26-01-2018, 11:23   #22
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Re: Refit...Why So Slow?

Wifi router at home , 30 minutes and its up and running , 5 opening the box , 10 reading the manual for the settings , 10 putting the screws in the wall to hang it up , 5 minutes to plug in the cables and power



AIS receiver in a boat 5 opening the box , 10 reading the manual for the settings, 15 minutes clearing the space in front of the electronics box , 10-15 minutes opening the electrincs box , 30 minutes to identify a spare 12 volt breaker and switch , 30 minutes to an hour identifying a proper place for the AIS black box inside the electronics box, if unlucky 90 minutes to a day and a half preparing the space in the electronics box expoying some wood inside to actually put screws to hang up the AIS black box (includes multiple trips to 'the' (multiple) store as you need wood , screws, epoxy ) 60 minutes run the power cables neatly to the breaker , fasten them , shorthen them, put cable eyes on them and attach to the breaker switch , then (if you have already decided ) 4 hours or (much) more to run an extra cable through the mast to connect to an extra VHF antenna *OR* install a VHF splitter (which is basically teh same amount of work as the AIS box, so : 5 opening the box , 10 reading the manual for the settings, 15 minutes clearing the space in front of the electronics box , 10-15 minutes opening the electrincs box , 30 minutes to identify a spare 12 volt breaker and switch , 30 minutes to an hour identifying a proper place for the AIS black box inside the electronics box, if unlucky 90 minutes to a day and a half preparing the space in the electronics box expoying some wood inside to actually put screws to hang up the VHF splitter (includes multiple trips to 'the' (multiple) store as you need wood , screws, epoxy ) 60 minutes run the power cables neatly to the breaker , fasten them , shorthen them, put cable eyes on them and attach to the breaker switch) 5 minutes to connect the AIS to the antenna/VHF splitter . 10 minutes to a day and a half GPS mushroom connecting (find place for the mushroom inside or out , run the cable through conduits which are invariable completely full already , so 30-180 minutes swearing , opening a beer , looking at the whole mess from a distance , moping , finding renewed energy , drilling holes etc . connecting the AIS to the NMEA backbone (30 minutes *IF* you have all the male / female connectors and cables and splitters , if not these 30 minutes rapidly exand to a day or more finding and sourcing material ) *OR* (90 minutes) connect it to the NMEA0183 'network'

then a day or 2 - 3 troubleshooting why other stuff doesnt work anymore, plotter and network settings , incompatibility issues , software and firmware upgrades etc



so , 2 'black boxes' .. should take the same amount of time , right ? ;-)



p.s. here's a part install of what was supposed to be a pretty straight forward battery monitor install, to give you an idea (and no , I am not an electronics n00b !)



http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2494473
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Old 26-01-2018, 11:31   #23
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Re: Refit...Why So Slow?

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Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
When "refitting" a house you just run to the hardware store. Refitting a boat in a remote location means shipping stuff in and waiting for it to arrive, then it gets held up in Customs, then you need to arrange local transport....a month later, you have your parts!
My boat is currently on the hard for the winter, but I find it's not much better.

These days, I go down to the boat, unzip the cover, climb on, realize the yard unplugged the battery charger again, curse them, climb back down the ladder, plug the boat back in, climb back up, pray my batteries aren't toast, stand in the cabin trying to remember why I came down to the boat, remember why, realize i forgot my tools in the truck, climb down, fingers go numb from cold, climb back up, realize I have to pee, climb back down, realize the yard winterized the bathrooms, walk around for 5 minutes for a discreet spot, pee, climb back up. Now it's getting dark, wife texts and asks where I am, stand in the cabin staring at the holding tank I have to take out, get discouraged, zip up the boat, go home.

I can't wait for summer...
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Old 26-01-2018, 11:31   #24
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Re: Refit...Why So Slow?

Hello - Redhead here - 3.5 years into a 6 month reift.

As everyone has mentioned two of the biggies are "project creep" (one thing leading to another and then to another, ad infinitum) and the complex balancing of available materials vs available money.

Another one that makes a refit different than a house reno (I haven't seen it mentioned, pardon if I skipped over it) is what I call "You Bet Your Life":

Suppose I make a mistake rewiring a house and a fire breaks out at night. The smoke alarms wake me and I rush outside with my family and call 911.

Suppose I make a mistake rewiring a boat and a fire breaks out at night. By the time I wake - the only outside to rush to is the life raft or the dinghy and, for us at least, we are in the middle of the Northwest Pacific perhaps hundreds of miles away from help.

That's why my 6 month estimate was the unreal one - I won't go until I'm fairly sure I'll survive an emergency. Lots of time inspecting and replacing and lots and lots of money.
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Old 26-01-2018, 11:35   #25
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Re: Refit...Why So Slow?

Lots of these refit guys want a boat that looks near perfect.

Many times after completion they'll launch the boat and raise sail ........ the sails being 40 year old rags!?

My boat was a little rough when I bought it 6 years ago. It had been on the hard 5 years unattended. I did a few things to it and was sailing it within a month. I've made no structural repairs to the boat that I paid $2,000 for

I wanted to try it out before a put too much money into it. That was six years ago.

Another guy bought a Bristol 27 at about the same time (2011) and wanted to totally refit his boat before sailing.

He's still in the refit process.
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Old 26-01-2018, 11:47   #26
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Re: Refit...Why So Slow?

Oh and don't forget that most home projects are in a room straight sides, slap the dry wall up, add some tape and mud, sand and paint. Boat, let's see; first demo it, try and figure what size and type of material, then find it. Being in the hinterland means you wait until you can justify an 6 hr - 10 hr trip each way or pay a lot more for shipping. Now the fun starts, make a pattern, cut, oops a little off as it went on a curve, well a little mud won't hide it, start over. So I usually cut a little larger than the pattern, but each trim means off the boat, down to the shop, cut a little, repeat.

I am lucky in that that the boat is at my shop and I have a fair assortment of tools only 100 ft away. Still there are days I may be up and down the ladder 20 times! Plus side keeps you in shape! Like as already pointed out you can't decide if a visiter is welcome or not.
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Old 26-01-2018, 11:52   #27
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pirate Re: Refit...Why So Slow?

Money available..
Time available..
Space available..
Location and climate..
and finally.. does he really want to finish it.. for some its the 'garden shed'.. a space to escape to and tinker.
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Old 26-01-2018, 13:27   #28
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Re: Refit...Why So Slow?

Engine repairs are easier on a house. Same with rig work, steering, autopilot, nav systems, anchoring gear....
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Old 26-01-2018, 13:50   #29
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Re: Refit...Why So Slow?

My 2 bob`s worth is ,
By the time i get to the boat on the swing mooring (with tender loaded with all i need )
I`m already stuffed so i hit the job i need doing finish have a beer load all the rubbish and tools back in the tender and pack it in the truck ,,
1 hours drive
1/2 hour setup
1 hours work
1 hour clean up
2 hours Beer
1/2 hour load the truck
1 hour drive home

6 hours for for 1 hour work ,,,,,,,
NEVER ENDING
And wouldn't change a thing >>>>>>
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Old 26-01-2018, 14:12   #30
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Re: Refit...Why So Slow?

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Lots of reasons,

1. No straight lines, no straight, flat level walls, floors or ceilings. So basically for interior work almost every single board and panel is a custom fit, compound curve.

2. Wiring, plumbing, etc runs over, under, around, through and behind the floors, bulkheads, overheads and often even inside the deck. You rarely can just tear off the sheet rock and run all new right there where you can see and reach it.

3. Most people refitting boats aren't living in the boat so have to commute. Requires a lot more travel, setup and tear down time for every project.

4. Lots of the bits are custom or special order. You can't just walk into any neighborhood Home Depot and buy all the stuff you need.

5. For boat refits by owners, the great majority are not pros at every job and skill required and have to analyze and plan every job before starting. I can do most things better than a boat yard (at least any boat yard I could afford) but it takes me twice as long or more.

6. Redoing a house you don't have to stop and BS with the guy redoing the one next to yours.
Good post skipmac ! I am totally with you on number 5. !

I would add that yes some are refitting while traveling, and the smallest project tends to transform the whole boat into a garage.
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