Liveaboard Fees - again

[alexanick]

Originally Posted by Russ

I pay $300 a month in FL. You forget that most marinas A) don't want liveaboards B) You create more trash C) You use more water etc in the showers/head D) As they said "They can"
Russ

Where in Florida are you?

[Salty Fox]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I thought it would be a worthwhile discussion but see it's not and instead is going to be a bunch of "it's like" example that don't make sense. It appears the answer is just "because".

All of the fees they charge, including the liveaboard fee, pay for salaries, maintenance, materials, taxes, insurance, legal, and whatever profit might be left after all that.

But you aren't really asking about fees. You're asking about policies. You are expressing confusion about why one marina might have a policy that you agree with, while another marina has a policy that you don't agree with. So let's settle this issue for you now in this instance, and for everyone everywhere who has a problem with any policy issue:

You don't have power in this particular marina community. If you want to join this particular marina community, you are obliged to follow their rules, regardless of your capacity to understand those rules and regardless of your personal approval of those rules. If you wish to change the rules, you will need to ingratiate yourself into the community and rise to a position of leadership that will allow you to propose, implement, and enforce policies that make sense to you.

This is how society works. Nobody cares if you don't like it.

[capn_billl]

There are different types of "liveaboard".

We have all seen the floating trailer park type that live on a slowly sinking boat, because they can no longer afford a house.

That's why the word liveaboard has such a bad taste.

A surcharge encourages them to move to a lower priced marina with no surcharge.

Because no one wants to bring friends, and family to see the "yacht", parked next to a trashy floating trailer.

Getting rid of the trash, means they can boost slip rates $100 for everyone else for the right to only have new expensive boats as neighbors.

[Blaine]

I'm going to take this rant in a slightly different direction. But first, +1 because they can.

Yes there is an increase in costs to the marina, but those costs have been overstated. At least in So Cal, you are only allowed to spend the night on your boat 3 nights within a one week period unless you have legal liveaboard status. HOWEVER, you are perfectly welcome to be on your boat the other days of the week, and consume just as much electricity, use the heads and showers ashore, etc. Therefore, the marina's costs are only increased incrementally on those 3 days, otherwise they are fixed costs. Yes, I understand there are some admin costs to the marina as well.

Here's my beef -- I pay the up-charge to be a "permitted" liveaboard (which is a 55% premium) but what irks me is that the marina does nothing to get rid of blatant sneakaboards. So I'm paying that 55% premium for what??

[David1033]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I thought it would be a worthwhile discussion but see it's not and instead is going to be a bunch of "it's like" example that don't make sense. It appears the answer is just "because".

I'm with you. Your question was 'why the extra $150 for the second (and ensuing?) month(s)', which seems a good question to me, unless the marina stipulates that there's a liveaboard fee, but the first month is free, or paid in arrears.

[redhead]

Originally Posted by capeharj

All of you missed the boat, so to speak. The liveaboard fee is imposed by the taxing jurisdiction. It's a government method to discourage liveaboards. They see it as a way of getting property taxes on boats that are not considered in the taxable value of the marina.

Not the case here. We already pay a 12.84% tax "leaseholders tax" that applies to all rentals on land or water. Our leaseholder tax currently comes to $93/month.So the liveaboard fees on top of that will definitely cause us to cut the docklines.

Just an observation up in the NW US.

[sailorladd]

It's called gouging, or profiteering...plain and simple...

[alleymon]

You’re lucky they allow liveaboards at all. My marina allows it for about 30 vessels total and then only those 36’ and larger, million dollar indemnity insurance, extra fee based on per foot basis. Totals to nearly double the base slip fee.

[letsgetsailing3]

A lot of people are bringing up a fallacy, of course: that liveaboards don't use more resources than other slip holders.

While some weekenders probably do come in and use lots of water and electricity, there are many, MANY more slipholders who never even visit their boats. If for that reason alone, the average use of a non liveaboard is less. It's science. And no, no couple is living in a marina in the summer, in Florida, and using less than 50 gallons of water a month, all in. It's just not happening. The math just doesn't work out.

While liveaboards do bring some security to the other slipholders, they are guaranteed to use resources, and are a risk liability for the marina, because they are definitely there, and their numbers aren't diluted by the no-shows.

So is it fair? Yeah, it probably is. Does it matter? No.

Now this doesn't address the scofflaws, who live on their boat, but pretend not to. People who do this could well lose their slip privileges, though.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Blaine

I'm going to take this rant in a slightly different direction. But first, +1 because they can.

Yes there is an increase in costs to the marina, but those costs have been overstated. At least in So Cal, you are only allowed to spend the night on your boat 3 nights within a one week period unless you have legal liveaboard status. HOWEVER, you are perfectly welcome to be on your boat the other days of the week, and consume just as much electricity, use the heads and showers ashore, etc. Therefore, the marina's costs are only increased incrementally on those 3 days, otherwise they are fixed costs. Yes, I understand there are some admin costs to the marina as well.

Here's my beef -- I pay the up-charge to be a "permitted" liveaboard (which is a 55% premium) but what irks me is that the marina does nothing to get rid of blatant sneakaboards. So I'm paying that 55% premium for what??

To be legal and not a "sneak aboard". In many jurisdictions the marina is irresponsible to allow sneakaboards because they could be fined by the state and / or municipality, and / or even lose their marina operating permits by exceeding the number of liveaboards allowed. Kind of like owning a liquor store or a bar and letting the occasional underage minor purchase liquor, the consequences could be very adverse. And sneakaboards can have their lease terminated which with many marinas having lengthy waiting lists becomes a tremendous risk of having to pull your boat and put on the hard instead of retaining it moored.

It does take a certain amount of diligence to review entry and exits, typically by card control access devices and associated databases to establish those that are living aboard. The tenant enters one day but exit the next day. A simple spreadsheet or database sorting will identify each occurence. But then one has to take the evaluation another step, as one has to review the cameras to ascertain if the boat was in the slip or had departed for an overnight trip and returned a subsequent day, or several days. It is easy to verify a liveaboard / sneakaboard within the designated period of defined liveaboard status [e.g., days per week, or days per month] of such occurrence by use of electronic database and visual record confirmation.

[alctel]

My old marina charged an extra 105 CAD a month for liveaboards, which I hated.

The showers were coin operated ($1 for 2 mins) as were the laundry machines, the toilets were shared with the commercial fishing fleet, the float homes AND the stores, you got a free pumpout every week (but I had a composter) AND the electricity was metered.

Basically every single thing that a liveaboard would use more of and that would justify the fee was metered. The liveaboards on the dock helped keep an eye on stuff and fixed things in high winds etc so were a net benefit to the dock so it was especially galling.

But, I paid it because I had no choice. There was a big shortage of liveaboard slips there, and I needed to stay there for work, so I paid it.

So in answer to the original question - they charge it because they can.

[capn_billl]

Exactly, a 40 ft slip costs the same, whether you are a 20ft boat, or a 39.9ft boat.

There are marinas that charge a flat fee based on boat length, but the charge by the foot is blatent, we charge you more, because you can afford it.

I'm good with all that, the thing that gets MY goat is how classified marina rates are.

There are marinas that charge $200 a month for a 35ft boat, there are marinas that charge $2000 a month.

Very few publish rates, most say call for price, 200-400 a month I can afford, two grand is out of the question.

So I call dozens of marinas, waiting on hold for half an hour, while the receptionist calls the ONE guy authorized to give quotes, taking weeks to find a decent marina I can afford.

[Happ]

Sorry to say liveaboards CAN be a problem and more costly. I lived aboard in Marina del Rey and it was hard to get permission as they restrict the number at each marina. I asked why? The answer was simple. Liveaboards do use the trash more often. Liveaboards do use more water. Some Liveaboards spread out onto the docks. I mean some use the docks to store their personal items they don't want on their boats like kayaks, paddle boards, etc. Liveaboards do use facilities more often. Not just the laundry but the heads. When was the last time you as a liveaboard cleaned the public facility? Liveaboards can spread out as the living space becomes filled up. Liveaboards do a lot of work on their boats besides cleaning and washing them. I have seen a liveaboard build shelves on the docks! He had lumber, saw horses, and electric tools spread out over the dock. Marinas are not boat yards.

I have mentioned all the negatives> While I have never seen all these by one owner, I have seen all these over the years. In Marina Del Rey it was a 35% premium for living aboard. It is a fact of life. If you like living aboard then pay the fee.

[GTom]

Originally Posted by Happ

Sorry to say liveaboards CAN be a problem and more costly. ....

I don't think 2 bags of trash, 100 gal. water and maybe a few kW electricity (I use none, being on solar) per week, (often metered anyway!) is soo much, that it breaks the marina's finances. And quite obviously, if your water and electricity is metered, shower and laundry eating coins it's simply a ripoff - they do because they can do it.

For the rest (occupying space in the premises) simply rules have to be implemented. Never been a full-time liveaboard, longest was a month, but I can perfectly fit in my 33' worth of allocated space.

[john61ct]

Again pricing has no relation to costs where there is limited supply.

The business' goal is to maximize profits.

Be grateful there are still any marinas allowing any liveaboards.

Every year there will be fewer.