Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-06-2019, 14:55   #136
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Queensland
Boat: Lidgard yacht 32ft
Posts: 267
Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
The prices a business charges do not need to correspond to underlying costs in **any** way.

The rationale behind them does not need to be transparent to the customer, much less "rational", in fact the business model may very often seem crazy these days.

Bottom line is, if **you** can't afford the rent at a given location, you need to move to where you can.

The way the market is going these days, be very grateful for every marina that allows any liveaboards at all, the trend is for them to be eliminated in areas where real estate values have been rising.

Ranting helps nothing except maybe giving you a bit of psychological relief.
Well said. We have been live aboards since 2005 & have witnessed many that have had multi story apartments built right beside them. The end result is the price of the berths sky rockets & any live aboards are pushed out. Also a lot of live aboards are their own worst enemy. Insisting on hanging washing all over their boat, cluttering up the walkways, hoarding junk on deck & annoying others with the running of power tools out of hours.
Well that's my rant.
Davo1404 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-06-2019, 14:57   #137
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 378
Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
I’ve rarely seen “efficiency” as part of any definition of fairness. I could easily say fairness means something like, to each according to his/her need. But as I alluded to, most efforts along this line lead to Utopia

There is no such thing as a truly free market — at least not one that functions for long. Government intervention is deeply embedded in all functioning markets and market economies.
Government regulation to ensure market fairness, transparency, and that players aren't colluding to rig it is one thing. Government interfering in a market to control it is something quite different.

Two of our best examples are the U.S. vs Russia. One is mostly free, with minimal government intervention, and one mostly controlled. Which is most efficient? Which is most fair?
WindwardPrinces is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-06-2019, 15:07   #138
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4
Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

The marina has spent the money to develope the property. Income to cover these costs and make a profit are rental based.. however derived
Gypsy Jim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-06-2019, 15:17   #139
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Queensland
Boat: Lidgard yacht 32ft
Posts: 267
Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Why is the electric not metered and charged for? In Spain, apartment rentals, boat moorings etc get the elec bill on top of the agreed rental rate. Even here in Thailand, the apartment I rent for a month, I get the electric bill separately. (Water too). Utilities are always extra.
One of the marina's that we were in had priced the installation of every berth having an individual meter. The cost of this far outweighed the return of investment.
Davo1404 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-06-2019, 15:19   #140
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: France
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3
Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

So why not simply leave for a day sail. Empty the toilets, recharge the batteries and check back in for another month.
knoxy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-06-2019, 16:18   #141
Registered User
 
Icarus's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Philippines
Boat: S&S 40
Posts: 391
Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
I don't really understand liveaboard fees making sense. I'm currently in a marina for a month. If I stay a second month there is a $150 "liveaboard fee". This is a 35% adder for what? Am I suddenly going to be using more resources etc. the second month over the first?

Now I used to kind of understand this as "liveaboards" use more electrical. But it costs less to power a 3 bedroom house than a $150 liveaboard fee. Plus I have noticed that boats just sitting in a slip with no one on them still have their air conditioners running. So it isn't like a liveaboard boat is really using any more power than an empty boat.

Guess that leaves water. I can come to the dock and fill my water tanks for free and that will last us 3 weeks on average. We probably use more water at a slip because it's "right there" and easy to refill. Near as I can tell this results in us using about 50 gal/month more water. Is the 50 gal of water that I can get free normally worth an extra $150? The "weekender" boats will use more than that when they come back in from their 3 hour boat ride to wash the boat off.

The only thing I can see my liveaboard fee covering is the extra wear and tear on the dock boards because they get walked on more.

Rant over, everyone go back to important "stuff"
Most if not all marinas trying to get as much money out of us as possible.
I had the same situation in a marina in Brisbane. I sometimes stay on and off on my boat, to pay the levy i give them the dates when i stay, in the end it got all too confusing.
My argument is the marina either provides power and water included in the docking fees or not,
Icarus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-06-2019, 16:57   #142
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Boat: None currently … previously a Beneteau Oceanis 350. Before that … a Cavalier 30
Posts: 22
Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

If one accepts the argument that marinas don't like liveaboards … for whatever reason … then the additional fee could be regarded as an encouragement for you to go live aboard some place else.

I wonder what percentage of marina berths are occupied by liveaboards … and if they all went some place else … how many empty berths would then bring zero revenue for the marina?

Are marina berths in such short supply that there is a queue of folks wanting to berth for just 1 month?

I don't live over there … so I'm just curious.

Happy sailing … and living aboard
TonyDove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-06-2019, 16:59   #143
cruiser

Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,304
Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

Yes in densely populated areas where the job market is good it is not uncommon for there to be zero empty slips, waiting lists of multiple years and every year fewer marinas not more.
john61ct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-06-2019, 17:46   #144
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 1
Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

I was living in a marina a few years back. The marina rates were going up again.

This time is was explained that the city/county implemented the 'Fee'.

The reasoning was that people who live on boats don't pay property taxes. The local government decided they were missing out on tax revenue, so, here comes another fee.

The time limit was set to distinguish between a live aboard and cruiser. If you stayed past 30 days, you became a resident of the jurisdiction, and therefore needed to pay your fair share in taxes as a resident.

Yes, we all bitched, thought the property tax paid by the marina covered all the slips and so on.... but alas, someone is some small dark government office saw a loophole and by calling it a live aboard fee, and not a tax, its pretty easy for them to justify it to themselves.

Government agencies everywhere are overspending and looking for ways to plug the little leaks with money from anywhere they can get it.

We lose. Thats all there is to it.
Capt. Bilgeplug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-06-2019, 18:04   #145
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: HAWAII
Boat: CAL-2 30'
Posts: 158
Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyDove View Post
If one accepts the argument that marinas don't like liveaboards … for whatever reason … then the additional fee could be regarded as an encouragement for you to go live aboard some place else.

I wonder what percentage of marina berths are occupied by liveaboards … and if they all went some place else … how many empty berths would then bring zero revenue for the marina?

Are marina berths in such short supply that there is a queue of folks wanting to berth for just 1 month?

I don't live over there … so I'm just curious.

Happy sailing … and living aboard

Yep, I believe every slip on this Island has a waiting list except MAYBE Koolina way out West which is expensive and far from everything except way out West.
davenrino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-06-2019, 20:40   #146
Registered User
 
wingssail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: On Vessel WINGS, wherever there's an ocean, currently in Mexico
Boat: Serendipity 43
Posts: 2,911
Send a message via AIM to wingssail Send a message via Skype™ to wingssail
Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
No one has a moral right to occupy a berth, let alone one intended to live aboard. For some, this will require rethinking their living arrangements.
So Mark, your view is that we have no right to live on a boat.(think about this: "First they came for the liveaboards but I was not a liveaboard, and I did not speak out".)

You may find sometime in the future that your lifestyle, whatever it is, is no longer your right.

Anyhow, there is more to this issue than, "Because they can."

We joined our liveaboard neighbors in fighting a proposed liveaboard fee.

The Port Authority claimed that the liveaboards cost the marina more.

We said, "Marina costs should be charged to those who incur them. Put meters on the electricity, put coin boxes on the laundry and showers, we'll pay."

We proved that the actual expenses of extra water, garbage, and parking did not justify the proposed fee (our electricity was metered, the parking lot was only full on weekends). We also showed that liveaboards provided a service by being there on the dock. We discussed that using the toilets ashore was better than the weekenders who came back from their Saturday/Sunday outing with empty holding tanks, where did their Poo go? or dumped them in the marina. We asked, why does the gray water volume of a few liveaboards matter more than the periodic outflow of 9,000,000 gallons when the sewage treatment plant fails?

No good answer.

So it came to, "because they can."

But the "because they can" justification fell down. Our marina was built by the Corp of Engineers with federal money on shoreline condemned from private property owners to build a marina "for the public good". The "public good" does not mean charging as much as the traffic will bear.

We must remember that the shorelines are a limited resource owned by the general public and should not be doled out to businesses for their exorbitant profit.

BUT, there was another reason which was not often stated: Many people thought that liveaboards were second only to bums and hippies. One Port Commissioner came to the marina and noticed brown sea foam and mistakenly decided it was liveaboard waste discharge. The real question in their minds was, "why don't these people live in houses like normal people?"

In the end the "because they can" won out. The liveaboard fee was beaten once but it came back, over and over. Eventually it was imposed.

My kids and grand kids won't have the option of living aboard.
__________________
Sailing is a sport, an athletic activity, not a sedentary one.
Fred Roswold-Fred & Judy, SV Wings, Mexico
https://wingssail.blogspot.com/
wingssail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-06-2019, 21:48   #147
Registered User
 
ausnp84's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: UK, Australia, Europe
Boat: Custom Catamaran
Posts: 717
Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

I’m with the OP on questioning “liveaboard” fees... do I use extra water? Not really, compared to the weekenders and their hose downs. Power? All metered. Office staff “time”? It’s all pretty friendly here and I’ll always stop for a chat if someone’s up for it.

In return, the marina has another set of eyes watching out for people snooping after hours, or problems with boats on my pontoon (flooding / smoke / etc).

To me, a liveaboard tax is just another fee collecting exercise. Yes, there are boat owners who keep their boats in a total state and abuse the rule. But then there are plenty of home owners who keep **** piled high in their yards and the council has to regularly send them letters to clear it up. At least the marina can just send a brief “clean it or leave” letter and the issue’s done.

Now, where can I rant about my end of pontoon / hammerhead 12m berth that costs me double now I’ve got a cat vs the mono I used to have. I literally take up EXACTLY the same dock space but now pay double🤬
ausnp84 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 29-06-2019, 00:57   #148
Registered User
 
Buzzman's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: New South Wales, Australia
Boat: Still building
Posts: 1,296
Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Many hotels refuse long-term staying guests.

If you really wanted to do it, you might be able to negotiate that, but would likely need to pay more.
Actually, many hotels DO have long-term paying guests - and the daily 'rack rate' is WAY less than the 'casual' daily rack rate.

Still costs a BOMB, so only super-rich people can afford it.

Back in the day, I ran a hotel restaurant, and one of our 'every nighters' was a guy who wasd a former accountant whose family had moved on, wife passed, and he sold the house and moved into the hotel.

Had a three room suite - like a king-size suite: bedroom, separate sitting room and bathroom, with balcony. Was not allowed to preapre food of any kind in his room, so was in the hotel restaurant for most breakfasts and dinners, but tended to go elsewhere for lunch.

He was a nice old guy. He tipped the room staff, so they loved him.

So it is, technically, possible, but not all hotels provide the service.
Buzzman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-06-2019, 01:05   #149
Registered User
 
TeddyDiver's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arctic Ocean
Boat: Under construction 35' ketch (and +3 smaller)
Posts: 2,383
Images: 2
Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

Didn't read the thread throw but I think it boils down to demand of slips. When there's more demand than available slips the owners can choose their customers freely.
For liveboards buy some waste land free for development and build a bond.. problem solved
TeddyDiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-06-2019, 04:07   #150
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 10,071
Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

If these fees were actually based on resource use and direct costs to the marina, then there’s as a good an argument for liveaboards to be charged LESS, since they provide valuable services to the marina.

And if you’re going to insist that the price is based on actual resource use, then EVERYONE should be charged a different fee. I’m sure there’s as much variety in the amount of marina resources the typical causual boater uses. If it’s not fair to charge liveaboards more b/c they don’t use more resources, then the same argument applies to light users in general.

The reason they charge more is because they can, plain and simple.
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
fees, liveaboard

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fees? What fees? northoceanbeach General Sailing Forum 28 19-10-2014 10:19
Now am a Liveaboard Again Bluemansailor Liveaboard's Forum 7 12-09-2013 07:54
Liveaboard Fees sailorwoman Liveaboard's Forum 8 09-12-2011 15:07

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:12.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.