Chain Grabber Position For All Chain Rode

[ItDepends]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Perhaps if you were to learn how to use the hook properly you too would be happy with them. If sufficient chain is deployed after setting the snubber it forms a loop which hangs down preventing the hook separating from the chain, regardless of the rode tension.

Sorry bob, you are not my uncle. There are times that we need a snubber longer than the water depth. Like EVERY time we anchor in water less than 30 feet deep.

In those cases there is never a way to keep them reliably tight. And why are they better than my rolling hitch--exactly?

[ItDepends]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Unfortunately rolling hitches slip in extreme conditions.

I have sat through 74 knots of wind in a hurricane on a rolling hitch, so... thanks, but no thanks.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by ItDepends

Sorry bob, you are not my uncle. There are times that we need a snubber longer than the water depth. Like EVERY time we anchor in water less than 30 feet deep.

In those cases there is never a way to keep them reliably tight. And why are they better than my rolling hitch--exactly?

Mabee, just mabee try securing your snubber further aft, still giving you the length just not all in the water , or just shorten it up so that the hook is 10 feet or so off the bottom.

[wsmurdoch]

If you don't have a large diameter ducted propeller you may find your reverse thrust to be a bit smaller than 5 tonne.

On the web you can find measured reverse thrusts for different combinations of engine, transmission, and propellers. Look for propeller tests. An example is Yachting World, May 2009, "The Ultimate Propeller Test". For Beneteau 323 with a Yanmar YM20 (21 hp at 3600 rpm and 2.6:1 forward and 3.0:1 reverse) with 15 different propellers, they never measured greater than 270 kgf forward and 190 kgf reverse. My feeling is that any reasonable windlass should be unharmed by a load of 190 kgf.

[Kd9truck]

It looks good, I’ve never had my chain dislodge vertically from my anchor hook, the load of the boats dunnage and the load of the chain on the hook is not anything that concerns me, gravity has always been brutally faithful to me.
I do have a back up set of deck cleat loops that I put on the mid ships fairleads to share the elastic load in my system when needed.

My main concern is the shock load fatigue on the elastic components, and for that I have redundancy.

Components that are designed to absorb loads perform better with this task the longer they are, and the “stretch” in the system lasts longer and is healthier with the load shared over distance and material/mass.

My mooring cleats loop is 4 feet with an angle of 45°.

The more elasticity the less likely the system will be shock loaded to failure.
So putting a 35 ft loop with an angle of 35° is better in higher load conditions. ( wave hight, gusting wind loads, iritic currents )

the wider the angle the less it can carry, the more stress on the system

In one of my many occupational tittles I was tasked with purchasing life safety rope for the second largest fire service municipality in the world (NYC) so I spent a great deal of time researching load dynamics.

I hope this adds to the collective knowledge of your post.

Cheers

[SV__Grace]

1) Is it okay to set my anchor with my windlass taking the load?

Not a good idea. I use a shockle with a claw hook to set the anchor (easy on and off) then install my bridle when set. Many boats have a chain lock forward of their windlass that can do this.

2) Is placing the chain grabber from above the chain correct. I've heard another cruiser describe engaging the chain grabber from the bottom and then easing out a good deal of chain so that its hanging down on either side of the grabber. My worry is that without any sort of retention device, the chain grabber relies on tension in the system to remain engaged.

From the bow, above the chain, a claw hook should be attached from the top of the chain, a "U" shaped hook such as yours (I use the Mantus M1) should be attached from under the chain with enough hanging loose to create weight/tension on the hook but not hit the bottom and your hook will not fall off.

3) Advice on any other aspects of my setup/procedure would be greatly appreciated.

Yes, actually. Most snubbers are way too short to function well as you need enough length for the line to stretch and absorb the force of the boat moving at anchor. More important for higher winds and waves but the wind can kick up at any time and a good cruiser is always prepared for worst case scenario.

How long depends upon the boat and the size/type of line used for the snubber, but a fine guideline is 1/3-1/2 the length of the boat. You need to experiment to find the right size- too little is too jerky, too much is too bouncy, like a bungee.

As full time cruisers who live on the hook I have three snubbers on the foredeck ready to go at all times-

1. The shockle mentioned above used for setting the anchor and installed as a back up in case the primary snubber breaks.

2. A 30 foot bridle cleated mid-ships. strong enough for anchoring in gales.

3. A 35 foot lightweight waterline snubber that runs through a friction ring mounted on the lower bobstay tang that gets cleated on deck and can be adjusted for length- longer when the wind kicks up, shorter in close quarter anchoring conditions. A waterline snubber allows for less chain to get the same scope than 5-6 feet higher if cleated on the bow.

My preferred chain hook is the Mantus M1, which, unfortunately, Mantus seems to have stopped selling but is still available from other sellers. Both snubbers 2 and 3 use the M1 and both are secured on the foredeck when not in use, ready for deployment at any time. The M1 has a nice gate to secure the chain onto the snubber and they sell replacement gates though mine have never broken in 5 years of continuous use.

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Perhaps if you were to learn how to use the hook properly you too would be happy with them. If sufficient chain is deployed after setting the snubber it forms a loop which hangs down preventing the hook separating from the chain, regardless of the rode tension.

Please take a photo and show this UncleBob.
Sounds right, or even sketch it so we can see this.

Boatyarddog

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by ItDepends

Seriously? Those dinky little shackles and carabiners? NOWHERE near as strong as your chain. A TOTAL WEAK LINK!

They don't need to be as strong as the chain, by any logic. They need to be as strong as one leg (single leg loading is the failure mode) of the bridle, which in the case of the 8mm line I actually use (this was a first-day pic, not actual practice). They are rated at that strength (about 4200 pounds for the rope). So no, there is no unintentional weak link.


And would you rather break the bridle (yes) or the chain (no)? Of course the bridle is a weak link. It should always be so.


---


BTW, I stopped using plates years ago. The pic was from ~ 15 years ago. As Nolex pointed out, soft shackles (or Prusik slings) have many advantages. For me, the Prusik sling is the best combination of speed and flexibility, but I'm sure that depends on the boat.


IMO, a bridle is a wear item, designed to reduce yawing, increase anchor security, and reduce wear on the entire ground tackle string. It is disposable.

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

2) Is placing the chain grabber from above the chain correct. I've heard another cruiser describe engaging the chain grabber from the bottom and then easing out a good deal of chain so that its hanging down on either side of the grabber. My worry is that without any sort of retention device, the chain grabber relies on tension in the system to remain engaged.

From the bow, above the chain, a claw hook should be attached from the top of the chain, a "U" shaped hook such as yours (I use the Mantus M1) should be attached from under the chain with enough hanging loose to create weight/tension on the hook but not hit the bottom and your hook will not fall off.

Like other things, many have their way of adding the grabber to the chain. In this Mantus video they clearly add a u type grabber from the top.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99VEXYYJ_EM

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Like other things, many have their way of adding the grabber to the chain. In this Mantus video they clearly add a u type grabber from the top.

Because...
a. It is a locking grabber and cannot come off (I have one and used it for years).
b. There is only one attachment point (unlike a plate) is not going to hang from a bridle in the same way. It will twist with the chain under the weight of the lazy loop of chain and invert as soon as it is loaded (again, I have one).


All hooks take an opening-up attitude once the lazy chain hangs from them. Always. What you want to avoid is the lazy chain hanging over the bridle, which will happen EVERY TIME with a bridle if you put the plate on from the top. Simple mechanics. Thus, the plate goes under the chain.



Just sayin, used both hundreds of times.

[Bill O]

Apparently our setup defies simple mechanics or maybe I'm not putting out as much lazy chain as you are, but we put the plate on the top (keeper under) and the plate comes up on top when we bring it up or observing it at anchor. (almost every time except for the tornado incident mentioned previously in this thread before we had added a keeper)

Been working for us for years in many different anchorages, in various conditions. If we meet up in the Bay this fall I'll be happy to show you.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Apparently our setup defies simple mechanics or maybe I'm not putting out as much lazy chain as you are, but we put the plate on the top (keeper under) and the plate comes up on top when we bring it up or observing it at anchor. (almost every time except for the tornado incident mentioned previously in this thread before we had added a keeper)

Been working for us for years in many different anchorages, in various conditions. If we meet up in the Bay this fall I'll be happy to show you.

Coming up is different; with tension on the chain (no lazy loop) it will ALWAYS come up opening-down because of the weight of the big shackle. Obvious. At anchor it can go either way. It just depends on the weight of the loop vs. heavy ass shackle. If the shackle is down, perhaps the chain loop is small compared to mine or the shackle very large. I suspect it also depends on the bridle angle.

But for a plate without a keeper (Seadog--the OP's question) you would not want to do that. It can fall off if the wind dies or if the bridle touches the bottom. The Mantus hook locks. BTW, the MAntus hook can fall off if it is not locked and it rests on the bottom. It did that several times for me. Not often, but more than once.

Yes, that one is always put on from the top because it is easier that way. No reason not to. Non-locking hook are dependent on the lazy loop when the wind dies.

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Apparently our setup defies simple mechanics or maybe I'm not putting out as much lazy chain as you are, but we put the plate on the top (keeper under) and the plate comes up on top when we bring it up or observing it at anchor. (almost every time except for the tornado incident mentioned previously in this thread before we had added a keeper) Been working for us for years in many different anchorages, in various conditions. If we meet up in the Bay this fall I'll be happy to show you.

We haven't specifically mentioned the amount of lazy chain. I've seen many, many boats at anchor with the chain hook above the waterline and a small amount of lazy chain, which might be fine to take the load off the windlass but useless for reducing shock loads if the snubber line is not long enough, which it never is on those arrangements as they are almost always cleated at the bow or windlass or sampson post.

However, a small amount of lazy chain means that it doesn't matter whether the grabber is installed from the top or bottom.

My chain hook is always below the waterline and I let out as much lazy chain as I can without touching the bottom to add weight under the bow to dampen horsing, as a kellet would do.

[SuW]

Interesting discussion.

We don't power set our anchor with the windlass taking the strain. We use this chain stopper between the windlass and roller.

We lock the chain with the stopper and lift the chain off the windlass gypsy by a few links, leaving it engaged on the windlass. Then power set.

At anchor, the chain remains on the chain stopper, which takes the load.

We do have a regular chain hook as a back up to the stopper - that model has small parts that could go overboard (I've tied them with light line).

We've used rolling hitches to very good effect on a snubber shackled to a strong point at the waterline on our old boat. We have a Mantus chain hook. It's very nice and works well. I've tried it with a bridle and with a single snubber.

Your technique sounds fine. If it works, it works. Over time, you'll discover any flaws and can adjust.

Basically the chain hook and snubber/bridle is to try to get a comfortable time at anchor (a riding sail may help too) and to help relieve the anchor from shock loads. At worst if the anchor plate drops off, you're still anchored.

[Cynara]

When backing grab the chain in front of the windless if it is dragging you can feel it.

Otherwise any method that works for you is fine.

It is not rocket science