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Old 02-08-2017, 11:15   #106
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AGM or Wet Cell

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FWIW, I'm paying special attention since we just installed a 440-Ah bank of Lifeline GPL-4CTs... and we have no solar. OTOH, we're usually at a marina, usually only anchor out for 2-3 weeks at a time (at most), and even then because we have electric cooking our genset is on for a couple hours in the morning and again in the evening almost every anchored day... so our charging regime is likely more favorable than yours...

-Chris


I have two chargers, the Sterling is automatic and will go into float prematurely and I can reset it by cycling it's power, it's 60 amp.
The Magnum inverter / charger can be set to 1. A set time to float
2. A set number of amps until it drops to float 3. Manually trick it by setting float voltage at absorption levels to keep in in absorption as long and you like. It's 125 amp.

The outback I trick when I'm at anchor and set it so that absorption voltage and float are both 14.4, max recommended. All charger sources including alternator are temp compensated.
When plugged into shorepower I set the Outback so that it stays in float.

Your kinder on your bank of course when your on shorepower, but if you run the generator every morning and afternoon for a couple of hours each, your short cycling them for sure, your actually getting three cycles a day, small ones. Solar would be ideal for you, as that would keep you fully charged with the generator runs, but I have not seen a Sportfisherman with Solar, don't know where you would put it and it not be seen, and likely it may not keep up with daytime useable and if it doesn't, then of course it's not charging anything, just keeping the bank from being discharged so much.

Panels on a Sportfisherman would look about as odd as outriggers on a sailboat I think?

This is all just my opinion of course
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Old 02-08-2017, 11:18   #107
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Re: AGM or Wet Cell

Oh, reason chargers don't stay in bulk long is not that they drop out, it's just at that point the set voltage is reached and we go from constant current to constant voltage which is the end of bulk of course, bank will take huge initial charge rates, just the bigger they are, the faster constant voltage charging is reached
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Old 02-08-2017, 11:48   #108
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Re: AGM or Wet Cell

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Solar would be ideal for you, as that would keep you fully charged with the generator runs, but I have not seen a Sportfisherman with Solar, don't know where you would put it and it not be seen, and likely it may not keep up with daytime useable and if it doesn't, then of course it's not charging anything, just keeping the bank from being discharged so much.

Panels on a Sportfisherman would look about as odd as outriggers on a sailboat I think?

We have a hardtop over the bridge, with some available real estate...

I think I agree, solar would be a useful thing for us... but at the mo, our system seems pretty OK as is, without throwing more dollars -- and effort -- at it just now. The "effort" part would be all about installation, snaking cables, etc.

Especially since I doubt it would make a huge difference in our ability to power the cooktop and the water heater. And of course when the genset is running (and batteries are charging) we can have AC cooling the house if necessary, too. (Lots o' glass, not great air flow.)

Plus... in July and August, around here, it's not uncommon we'll have the genset running all day at anchor anyway, for AC, otherwise the saloon gets up near 100F pretty quickly...

But back to your Lifelines... do you not think you could charge those to 100% every day if you (bit the bullet and) either ran the genset/charger or the propulsion engine for some calculated amount of time every day, and worked your tricks with the chargers, given solar augmentation?

-Chris
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Old 02-08-2017, 12:26   #109
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Re: AGM or Wet Cell

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Oh, reason chargers don't stay in bulk long is not that they drop out, it's just at that point the set voltage is reached and we go from constant current to constant voltage which is the end of bulk of course, bank will take huge initial charge rates, just the bigger they are, the faster constant voltage charging is reached


It is easy to see how solar output is constant current. Although I have not done any actual testing, I seriously doubt that any battery charger is designed for constant current although that would be nice.

I believe absorption along with float currents are determined by a combination of the charging source's voltage along with the load's (batteries) acceptance. Acceptance is limited by (Vs-Vb)/Rbattery where Rbattery is the battery's effective resistance.

NOte, I did not consider the charging source's internal resistance because I equated it output voltage which under load is subject to the the source's internal resistance....NOT impedance which addresses AC voltages only.
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Old 02-08-2017, 12:46   #110
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Re: AGM or Wet Cell

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But back to your Lifelines... do you not think you could charge those to 100% every day if you (bit the bullet and) either ran the genset/charger or the propulsion engine for some calculated amount of time every day, and worked your tricks with the chargers, given solar augmentation?

-Chris


Yes, absolutely. If I can get them to full after a couple of days of them walking down to about 70% SOC with an hour or so gen run time, then I certainly can with them at 85% SOC after just one night.

It's just a matter of me not wanting to run the generator.
It is louder than most, mostly as I think because I have almost zero exhaust hose run. Generator sits about 6" from the muffler, I have a 90 fitting right at the generator and about two ft of hose making a big inverted U to the muffler, and another maybe 6" hose from muffler to exhaust thru hull. Great for almost no back pressure but you do hear quite a bit of exhaust noise. It's a Centek muffler, maybe there is a better, quieter one?
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Old 03-08-2017, 03:54   #111
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Re: AGM or Wet Cell

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It is louder than most, mostly as I think because I have almost zero exhaust hose run. Generator sits about 6" from the muffler, I have a 90 fitting right at the generator and about two ft of hose making a big inverted U to the muffler, and another maybe 6" hose from muffler to exhaust thru hull. Great for almost no back pressure but you do hear quite a bit of exhaust noise. It's a Centek muffler, maybe there is a better, quieter one?

Ah. Dunno whether quieting options might exist... maybe some other your-boat or your-genset owners could help on that...

The only thing that comes to mind is trying a longer exhaust run, maybe introducing a curl or something... but I'm not at all clued in on how all that works...

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Old 06-08-2017, 06:09   #112
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Re: AGM or Wet Cell

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I have 1KW Solar
Will you post a picture of your solar panels installation, please? I am interested to see how and where the panels are supported on IP38.

With proper installation you should be generating about 4 kW*h a day in South Florida. Must be able to run an air conditioner off an inverter for couple hours a day in addition to the refrigeration and other electric loads.
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Old 06-08-2017, 06:49   #113
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Re: AGM or Wet Cell

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With the FLA batteries they do, FLA are very tolerant of PSOC, maybe why it's the battery of choice for golf carts, floor sweepers and forklifts etc.
However a Lifeline AGM won't tolerate it nearly as well, reason way back at the beginning of this thread why I said go with golf cart FLA batteries.
I had Odyssey AGM batteries in my last boat. Regularly discharged them to 20% and seldom charged to more than 80-85% of full capacity. After five years they lost about 10% of rated capacity. Was good enough for me. Not having to regularly add water and breath sulfuric acid fumes - priceless.
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Old 06-08-2017, 07:41   #114
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Re: AGM or Wet Cell

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No, don't listen to me, listen instead to Maine Sail >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm just a hack trying to get a good understanding about how and why, that's all.
According to my contact at a Lifeline apparently years ago a very well respected Marine electrician was teaching to charge your bank when it got to 50% and stop when it got to 85% or so as that maximizes charging efficiency and if your charge source is you boats motor, it reduces engine run time to as little as possible.
However it also will kill a Lifeline AGM in short order, and that of course does nothing good for their reputation, like Maine Sails example of his customer that will call complaining about those bad AGM batteries that he is going to kill. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is a perfect example of why many of us keep saying you DO understand this "whole deal." You really do and you explain it very well.

You understand Maine Sail's explanation of a SYSTEM approach.

The old 50-85 regimen was OK for FLAs because it reflected the primacy of minimizing engine run time compared to the acceptance of the batteries. The batteries were considered the consumable product, not the engine! This concept will still work today.

With EXPENSIVE AGMs, now the batteries become less of a consumable, the batteries themselves are the piece of equipment that require the proper care and feeding. The supporting cast of charging sources must be improved to support the new storage medium, per Maine Sail's post #92, as you say.

a64, you "got it." All the best with your chainplate project and your cruise. Thanks.
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Old 06-08-2017, 08:00   #115
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Re: AGM or Wet Cell

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I had Odyssey AGM batteries in my last boat. Regularly discharged them to 20% and seldom charged to more than 80-85% of full capacity. After five years they lost about 10% of rated capacity. Was good enough for me. Not having to regularly add water and breath sulfuric acid fumes - priceless.
Did you get that 10% number from a 20-hour load test?

The shallow discharge makes a big difference.

That depreciation would still be too expensive for me, likely halving their potential lifespan. But fine for you, I understand.
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Old 06-08-2017, 08:08   #116
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Re: AGM or Wet Cell

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Did you get that 10% number from a 20-hour load test?
That is correct.
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Old 06-08-2017, 16:31   #117
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Re: AGM or Wet Cell

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Did you get that 10% number from a 20-hour load test?

The shallow discharge makes a big difference.

That depreciation would still be too expensive for me, likely halving their potential lifespan. But fine for you, I understand.
I think he is saying that he had very deep discharges....down to 20% of capacity. Of course different people say things differently...
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Old 06-08-2017, 18:01   #118
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Re: AGM or Wet Cell

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I think he is saying that he had very deep discharges....down to 20% of capacity. Of course different people say things differently...
He is saying that after five years of maintaining a battery charge predominantly between 20 and 85 per cent of its rated capacity the battery capacity dropped by 10% as measured at a 20 hour discharge cycle.
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Old 06-08-2017, 18:37   #119
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Re: AGM or Wet Cell

Odyssey really is amazing. Never let anyone scoff that batts are all the same.
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Old 08-08-2017, 18:22   #120
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Re: AGM or Wet Cell

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Will you post a picture of your solar panels installation, please?
No such luck, uh?
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