A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

[Terra Nova]

About 10 years ago, our Wauquiez Centurion 42 crew were practicing (on San Francisco bay) for the next day's SF to Santa Barbara race. Also on the bay that day was a boat whose beauty under sail simply took my breath away. It was far in the distance, but I could tell she was a double-ender of fairly lean proportions.

When I first saw her I involuntarily exclaimed "Whoa!" And asked one of our crew (a yacht broker) if he could identify it. His guess was that it might be a Freya 39. It was, in fact, the very Freya 39 I would (years later and unknowingly) travel to San Leandro to inspect and, months later, to purchase.

During those few intervening years I worked steadily on resolving what I wanted in my next boat. So I took my inflatable to harbors all over southern California, searching for the right boat, talking to owners and sellers, and generally applying myself to the task. Double-enders have a special connection with me. And I found myself gravitating toward Rafiki 37, Alajuela/Ingrid 38, Tayana 37... ultimately to Terra Nova.

The reason I mention this is not to sell you my boat. It is to portray the seduction, courtship and love affair that occasionally comes to those fortunate enough to welcome it.

[ka4wja]

Becky, Mike, et al,
1) I think we all here mostly agree on this point...as I wrote back in post #7....

Originally Posted by ka4wja

I am confused by your questions....
You stated up font what your choice was....and you're asking what others choices were???
Not sure how that will help...as others' choices are based on THEIR desires, for THEIR application, etc....and YOUR choice will be based on YOUR desires for YOUR application....(and since you've made no mention what your application is...just writing, "My basic requirements as stated above are well founded in our intended use of the boat "....we are sort-of in the dark here....yes??)

And, Mike wrote here...

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

The worst thing you could do is buy a boat based on someone else's criteria.

And, Becky just wrote here....

Originally Posted by oldragbaggers

I agree wholeheartedly with the previous poster who pointed out that this sort of question will mostly get you endorsements of each individual's favorite boat, because each individual's needs to are so, well.....individual....
....so of what value would MY opinion be in his search for HIS ideal boat?

And, I THINK Mark (the original poster) is now starting to see the light here as well!!






2) But, here is something I'd like to politely disagree with...as I do NOT see this as an "either / or" decision, as you CAN have "a sound, properly maintained and outfitted, well-built boat by a reputable designer", that is "heavily built offshore cruiser if I were heading off into situations where I would be at sea for long periods of time, cruising routes where variable/unpredictable weather conditions are to be expected, or heading into waterways known to be more treacherous.", AND have "space and livability" on-board!!! (although it usually costs more money!!! It IS very do-able!!!)

Originally Posted by oldragbaggers

A sound, properly maintained and outfitted, well-built boat by a reputable designer, will outlast the captain and crew in most circumstances, but I too would opt for the heavily built offshore cruiser if I were heading off into situations where I would be at sea for long periods of time, cruising routes where variable/unpredictable weather conditions are to be expected, or heading into waterways known to be more treacherous. I would opt, however, for the space and livability if I were choosing coastal cruising and Caribbean island hopping. These are questions that haven't really been answered.

So, while I agree with 'ya Becky in the first section above...here we disagree....(unless you were speaking in terms of acquiring this hypothetical boat on a tight budget...then I'd tend to agree with 'ya!!)


What's that old saying:
1- Cheap/Affordable....
2- Fast/maneuverable....
3- Strong/sturdy....
4- Plenty of room/plenty of storage...
You can have TWO of the above, and you MAY be able to get THREE of the above....but you cannot get all FOUR of the above!!!






3) Here again we agree....and I think everyone would agree as well...like you wrote Becky, it just depends on what that "individual" defines as "adequate", 'enough room", "comfortable", etc....what is THEIR cruising lifestyle, etc...

Originally Posted by oldragbaggers

For us basic essentials means a comfortable berth, an adequate galley, a head with shower, enough room in the cockpit for a few guests and adequate storage for the needed gear and supplies. (Needed gear and supplies, once again, subject to intended use. Do I need to be able to store enough food and gear for months, or will I be within reach of a market every couple of days??) After that, in a world where I couldn't have it all, I would focus the bang for my buck depending on where I was headed and what my intended cruising lifestyle was going to be, with safety considerations first and everything else after that negotiable.

I sure hope Mark (the original poster) is reading all of this....as you're getting a wealth of knowledge here!!!
And, I hope it is not lost on everyone that we are getting a significant agreement here between sailors who sail VERY different boats, and have very different "individual" definitions....but the facts are that what works for one, will not work for the other....




4) So, right back to what I wrote yesterday in post #7....

Originally Posted by ka4wja

I am confused by your questions....
You stated up font what your choice was....and you're asking what others choices were???
Not sure how that will help...as others' choices are based on THEIR desires, for THEIR application, etc....and YOUR choice will be based on YOUR desires for YOUR application....(and since you've made no mention what your application is...just writing, "My basic requirements as stated above are well founded in our intended use of the boat "....we are sort-of in the dark here....yes??)

I think I have been shown how this can be of help...Mark is getting an education here!!
Not getting recommendations on what boat to buy, but an education on what to look for and maybe how-to prioritize things...

So, Mark, if I can leave with one or two final thoughts to remember:
a) Most boats WILL take much more than their captain/crews can take!!
b) Choose the boat that REALLY suits YOUR "needs", not just your "desires" (and learn to know the difference!), nor the boat that suits someone else's needs / desires!!!




Fair winds to all...


John
s/v Annie Laurie

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Mpricer

Carstenb,

Yes you guessed right...I am concerned with the issue of stability and that has been the driving force in my search thus far. It is becoming quite obvious that many on this forum do not share my belief that full keel, heavy displacement equals stability. That's probably a good thing, and certainly why I'm here. Not being a sailboat owner, having never bought one and only sailed on very small keel boats I'm trying to find middle ground for my search. Of course, I'm probably hooked on the full keel, heavy displacement angle because it's been owners of those types of boats that I've been talking to the most. Anyway, I have time, there is no rush and this exercise will no doubt help to flush out my true expectations.

Thanks

Mark

A heavy displacement is not necessarily going to be more stable. Quite the opposite sometimes.

Here is a link to USsailings page of calculators
Angle of Vanishing Stability

Use these to calculate things like angle of vanishing stability etc etc.

Heavy displacement boats are slow and frequently don't point to the wind very well.

I guess I's also like to know what exactly you mean by "stability"? Are you talking about less wallow (wrong), easier motion in heavy seas(we can argue this).

Finally - you're asking for a blue water - are you planning an ocean passage? From your posts, I'm inferring you don't have the experience for an ocean passage. You're probably going to sail coastal for a few years.

You'll get a lot more boat with a modern one, than some old full keel lug.

My opinion, but I've owned and sailed quite a few boats.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by Mpricer

s/v Jedi, I don't worry to much about the fin keel, I am sold on displacement however. I do worry about an unprotected rudder. Has that consideration ever concerned you?

To answer your question I've been looking at, in no particular order:

Allied Mistress 39'
Westsail 42'
Hans Christian 38T
Lord Nelson 41'
Tayana 38'
Morgan 383
Pearson 424
Cape George (can't find many)
Dickerson 40'
Bristol 39/40(too narrow)

The Mistress is a nice boat, but I am not sure I'd call it exactly "blue water." The Wetsnail is just that. You mean Tayana 37, a fine boat but with some potential issues (all of them have issues, I'm sure, but I happen to know the T37's intimately).

The Pearson would be a good choice, I'd think.

What about a Valiant 40? Not "full keel" but ...

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by SailPenelope

I started out with a Catalina 27, then a Catalina 30, now a CT41 ketch. With each increase in size, I actually stored less stuff on the boat. Also, what I kept on board shifted from household goods and food to spare parts.

You need so much less than you think. Start with nothing, then add only what you need, when you need it. I started with the Catalina 27 and an empty toolbox.

Yeah, but then you found out cruising is nothing other than doing boat maintenance in exotic places (or even non exotic ones) and you had to buy a bigger boat to haul all the tools! haha

[Mpricer]

Thanks Becky,

You're right, boat ownership and living aboard requires compromise. I'm not an all or nothing sort, even if my posts suggest that, I was just surprised to find that all the boats in my "category" were much smaller at the waterline than I expected. I will admit in some, like the Pearson 38 I was impressed with the layout and how the limited space was used.

I guess I was not clear in my original post and I assumed that everyone probably had read Annie Hill's book and would have an idea of what we intended to use the boat for.

I will be more specific; I live in TX so for now we will be spending a lot of time in the Gulf and Southern Islands, however we intend to make a couple pacific crossings. One to Hawaii and one to Japan. There may be a trip to Greenland and Norway etc, but not sure. Coastal Maine and Nova Scotia for sure.

I guess most people got the idea that I was looking for some mega yacht interior, but the truth is I was just somewhat disappointed with the ratio of LOA to LWL on the older hull types that I was looking at. I though maybe I was missing something, so I thought I could vet my expectations and desires here for perspective. It worked.

Although, I have found the house divided on issues like, skeg mounted Vs. spade rudders, and what actually constitutes stability, the latter of which is not an objective consideration, there are without question more and less stable sailboats out there. I don't know, I would prefer to err on the side of caution I guess. I will just have to see how many compromises I have to make and go from there. Again, thanks for your insight.

[Mpricer]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

About 10 years ago, our Wauquiez Centurion 42 crew were practicing (on San Francisco bay) for the next day's SF to Santa Barbara race. Also on the bay that day was a boat whose beauty under sail simply took my breath away. It was far in the distance, but I could tell she was a double-ender of fairly lean proportions.

When I first saw her I involuntarily exclaimed "Whoa!" And asked one of our crew (a yacht broker) if he could identify it. His guess was that it might be a Freya 39. It was, in fact, the very Freya 39 I would (years later and unknowingly) travel to San Leandro to inspect and, months later, to purchase.

During those few intervening years I worked steadily on resolving what I wanted in my next boat. So I took my inflatable to harbors all over southern California, searching for the right boat, talking to owners and sellers, and generally applying myself to the task. Double-enders have a special connection with me. And I found myself gravitating toward Rafiki 37, Alajuela/Ingrid 38, Tayana 37... ultimately to Terra Nova.

The reason I mention this is not to sell you my boat. It is to portray the seduction, courtship and love affair that occasionally comes to those fortunate enough to welcome it.

In honesty, I think I'm going down that same road. My mind says, hey what about this and that and my heart says look here. The good thing is the journey can take as long as it takes, I'm in no hurry, getting it right for me/us is all that matters. Thanks so much for the comment.

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Mark

A heavy displacement is not necessarily going to be more stable. Quite the opposite sometimes.

Here is a link to USsailings page of calculators
Angle of Vanishing Stability

Use these to calculate things like angle of vanishing stability etc etc.

Heavy displacement boats are slow and frequently don't point to the wind very well.

I guess I's also like to know what exactly you mean by "stability"? Are you talking about less wallow (wrong), easier motion in heavy seas(we can argue this).

Finally - you're asking for a blue water - are you planning an ocean passage? From your posts, I'm inferring you don't have the experience for an ocean passage. You're probably going to sail coastal for a few years.

You'll get a lot more boat with a modern one, than some old full keel lug.

My opinion, but I've owned and sailed quite a few boats.

Being the owner of a "Sun Fast", you know as well as I that the stability and comfort of a boat moving forward has to do with the way it is sailed.
Any boat, sailed wrong will be an uncomfortable ride,
And what type of boat or keel for that matter only comes up on this forum.. over the last 10 years of living on our boat and cruising the waters from Alaska to Mexico, the main topic of conversation that comes up among cruisers is "who serves a good hamburger around and where to get Ice Cream "
As for my Values in picking a good blue water boat, I look for one that will make a "fast and safe passage" ....

Leaving for Hawaii and points further next month...............

[a64pilot]

I just finished a search similar to your own,
My checkbook voted on an Island Packet, I'm still wondering why these boats don't come up more often in these discussions than they do. I didn't search every answer, but I bet none voted Island Packet but myself.
Why is that?

[dcstrng]

You’ve asked “the” question – and my guess is that even those who have weighed the matter at length aren’t sure they have the answer. As a practical matter I like a boat that will sit on its own keel with lateral support, but no specific tendency to nose over… as I’ve aged (do not confuse that with experience, I knew a lot more about sailing 40 years ago…) I’ve tended towards longer and longer keels on shorter and shorter boats; and by their nature these begin to be higher D/L… I now tend to keep my boats as utter gadget-free-zones, anything to ease maintenance; but that is because of a 15-tonner I once lived aboard – have no idea who the skipper was, but I can tell you who the maintenance officer was and learned my lesson… usually the previous mates vetoed abject austerity, however… Always loved the Westsail 32, but now days they’re a bit passé I think…

[Mpricer]

Well, this is nothing if not educational. There is a lot to agree on, and I can see clearly that there are upsides and downsides to every choice. Sorta like the rest of life I suspect.

Anyway, I've heard from a lot of sailors who have significantly varied experience and even given their differences, there are certain themes upon which all, or most, seem to agree.

I will consider that the lesson learned. I have more resources, ideas, suggestions and comparisons than I had when I started this. That's a good thing. It is amusing though, the things that people disagree about. Who would have thought that the simple act of buying a sailboat could be so very complicated. lol.....

Thank you all for your insight, for sharing your knowledge, and your prodding. I am certainly the better for it.

Mark

[Mpricer]

Originally Posted by dcstrng

You’ve asked “the” question – and my guess is that even those who have weighed the matter at length aren’t sure they have the answer. As a practical matter I like a boat that will sit on its own keel with lateral support, but no specific tendency to nose over… as I’ve aged (do not confuse that with experience, I knew a lot more about sailing 40 years ago…) I’ve tended towards longer and longer keels on shorter and shorter boats; and by their nature these begin to be higher D/L… I now tend to keep my boats as utter gadget-free-zones, anything to ease maintenance; but that is because of a 15-tonner I once lived aboard – have no idea who the skipper was, but I can tell you who the maintenance officer was and learned my lesson… usually the previous mates vetoed abject austerity, however… Always loved the Westsail 32, but now days they’re a bit passé I think…

Way to go Larry, you know just how to put it! Love it...Thanks!

Mark

[Mpricer]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I just finished a search similar to your own,
My checkbook voted on an Island Packet, I'm still wondering why these boats don't come up more often in these discussions than they do. I didn't search every answer, but I bet none voted Island Packet but myself.
Why is that?

Good question, I don't know....I have looked at them, I like what I see, but they seem to be pretty pricy..not sure I can afford to go that route.

Mark

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

...During those few intervening years I worked steadily on resolving what I wanted in my next boat. So I took my inflatable to harbors all over southern California, searching for the right boat, talking to owners and sellers, and generally applying myself to the task. Double-enders have a special connection with me. And I found myself gravitating toward Rafiki 37, Alajuela/Ingrid 38, Tayana 37... ultimately to Terra Nova.

The reason I mention this is not to sell you my boat. It is to portray the seduction, courtship and love affair that occasionally comes to those fortunate enough to welcome it.

Wonderfully put TN. A boat, especially one you are going to live on and with for a long time, is not just a vehicle. It's a thing of beauty. If your boat doesn't make your heart beat a little faster when you see her swinging from the anchor or sailing past (hopefully not after you've fallen over ), then you've got the wrong boat.

Finding a well built boat that meets all the technical specs is important (and not that hard). But finding one that also tugs at your heart strings is spiritually and emotionally vital.

P.S. The Freya 39 is a beauty .

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Mpricer

Good question, I don't know....I have looked at them, I like what I see, but they seem to be pretty pricy..not sure I can afford to go that route.

Mark

Some can be had for real close to 80K, one I just bought I paid about that for.