Merry Christmas from Guardia Civil (Spain)- insurance q

[LostinFrance]

Try Pantaenius, they are one of the few that would insure my British registered boat when I live in France. Not the cheapest but flexible.

[pufferfish]

The problem is not with your boat/property, it is the problem you could cause to others and far beyond your means to fix. The requirement is a 3rd party insurance- to cover the harm you do to others. Much cheaper and much easier to obtain than insuring your boat.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

There are a couple of points you seem to misunderstand here. The OP is not required to have hull insurance, his boat his risk, and there is nothing illegal or immoral about that. He is required to have liability insurance, that protects other people from damage caused by him or his boat. Just like in the USA you are required to have liability insurance on your automobile to use it on the public roads. Exactly the same situation.

Here is the standard explaination of the difference: if your boat burns to the waterline, your loss, your problem, not my concern. If you boat starts a fire than burns MY boat and 5 others in the marina I am guessing you don’t have the ability to cover those damages out of your pocket, so you are putting that risk on ME, and I have no say in the matter. That is why I prefer to stay at marinas that require proof of insurance even in places where the law does not require it. The people who claim they are “self insured” just have no idea how quickly they can cause damage that greatly exceeds all of their liquid assets. Basically if they drag anchor and damage another boat, or are involved in a collision, or spill oil or fuel, they are giving the middle finger to the injured parties.

I do consider it extremely bad behavior to visit a country with the expectation you are going to violate whatever rules you think are inconvenient to obey, and hope you get away with it. I guess it rises to the level of immorality. It certainly marks you as someone I consider untrustworthy. It violates one of the principles of good cruising behavior, “Leave a clean wake.” That does not just refer to your physical trash, but also to your behavior.

The solution is simple, if a country has rules you are unwilling to follow you just do not go there. If you have chosen to go somewhere and knowingly and deliberately ignore they rules of the people who live there, don’t be surprised if I experience a bit of schadenfreude if the authorities throw the book at you.

So eloquently put.

[geoff3nebel]

As an aside and in reply to the French being all over your ass if you fly the red duster - this is not the case in the northern French ports facing the English coast where they welcome British yachties - especially Cherbourg which actively encourages British visitors and offers discounts for members of recognised associations

[BlueH2Obound]

I appreciate the members here who are attempting to ASSIST the OP with his issue of finding insurance, rather than lecturing to him from their ivory tower on his perceived past decisions.

For heaven's sake, if you don't have anything constructive to say to HELP the poster, why do you see the need to post just to pig pile on him?!?
Either be polite and be part of the solution, or please don't post anything at all.

We too are US Citizens, currently cruising out of country. I would recommend Peter Ricks of Novamar Insurance. If he can't bind you coverage, he should be able to point you in the right direction to HELP you in your admitted desire to come into compliance with the laws of your host country.

• Peter Ricks
• Marine Insurance Specialist
• 2100 Westlake Ave N, Suite 103, Seattle, WA 98109
• (800) 823-2798/ (206) 350-5051/ fax(206) 281-8036

Best of luck in your search, and I hope you can clear this hurdle and get back to boating, which is what this and other forums are really about after all.

[Timreyn]

I found it impossible to buy liability insurance in the EU for my USA boat. The companies in the EU will not write a policy on a US boat because of the exorbitant payouts in the USA. I found a USA company to write it, about $350 per year. I'd have to look up with who.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Timreyn

I found it impossible to buy liability insurance in the EU for my USA boat. The companies in the EU will not write a policy on a US boat because of the exorbitant payouts in the USA. I found a USA company to write it, about $350 per year. I'd have to look up with who.

$350 a year for liability insurance for a Lagoon 570?

I can't imagine that's worth the paper it's printed on. Or that it offers the boat owner (or other boaters) much protection.

Any payouts while in the EU would be in accordance with EU laws, no? Seems odd that insurance companies can't sort out that kind of nuance.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by markxengineerin

I'm not thinking I deserve a pass. This was a risk I was willing to take, because the odds of having a problem seemed low. I checked in in France, stayed in one of the largest marinas and was not asked for insurance.

This does seem to be a difficult rule to enforce properly, because of the fine print in policies from all around the world. For example, I could probably have just shown my cancelled American insurance (which was invalid here even before I cancelled it) and been fine.

Seems to me you're lucky they didn't fine you.

I hope you're lucky enough to find insurance, but you probably need it for the entire time you're in the EU, not just while you're in Spain.

[markxengineerin]

The boat insurance industry is definitely ripe for disruption. I'm imagining a website similar to google flights where you can easily and quickly study the impact of changes in an intuitive way. No middle-man agents and unknowably variable profit margins, no fine print policies that most people don't read, no confusion. There would be a series of questions you answer then get an itemized quote.

I'm sure it would be a major undertaking because of all the different countries and rules, but hopefully someone eventually does this.

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by BlueH2Obound

For heaven's sake, if you don't have anything constructive to say .........................please don't post anything at all.

Who's says that pointing out oversights, inconsiderate, irresponsible, or unethical behavior isn't constructive?

[MultiCountryDon]

Originally Posted by Shrew

Who's says that pointing out oversights, inconsiderate, irresponsible, or unethical behavior isn't constructive?

[MultiCountryDon]

Originally Posted by Farbrook

There seems to me to be an undertone in some of these replies that the OP has behaved badly, or even immorally. I disagree.

Anecdotally there appear to be very many yachtsmen sailing the globe without insurance and this has probably been the case since Ahab, so in terms of 'custom and practice' it seems highly morally defensible.

The risks of not holding insurance seem to me to be threefold:
1. the loss of your vessel in an accident which brings your sailing life to an end because you have insufficient money to replace it;
2. being chased by a third party (an insurance company usually, or an individual if he/she is also uninsured) following damage you cause to their property or body;
3. being prosecuted for failing to comply with local laws.

The obvious point being that holding insurance doesn't reduce the likelihood of having an accident, it merely eases your subsequent financial pain. Personally I carry a high level of insurance but only because I sleep better as a result, if the OP sleeps well while understanding the risks that seems OK to me.

However most activities tend to become more regulated as time passes and that's certainly the case in the EU so it pays to try to keep an eye on the various regulations that apply to cruisers here - Noonsite is a very good resource for this.

I think the OP was lucky not to have been asked for insurance in the French marina, I have used many marinas in the EU and several elsewhere in the last few years and have always needed to supply proof of insurance.

I'm sorry not to be able to point towards a source of insurance, but bearing in mind the number of US yachts in the Med it seems likely there is a good source somewhere. Perhaps getting in touch with some US skippers might yield results.

Also if, as you say, your objective is just to get a document that shows you are insured rather than actually be insured, you could perhaps complete an insurance application with a fairly casual regard to the facts.

Good luck.

Immoral , bad act, illegal
This site should not encourage bad behavior which this post is promoting.

[markxengineerin]

I think the thread show allow both the moral debate and the practical suggestions for finding insurance. The moral issue is not black or white, at all, and it's worth hearing both sides IMO.

[MultiCountryDon]

Originally Posted by markxengineerin

I think the thread show allow both the moral debate and the practical suggestions for finding insurance. The moral issue is not black or white, at all, and it's worth hearing both sides IMO.

Where a law exists, it is immoral to intend to break that law, and illegal to actually break that law. If you don't agree with a law you may work,within stated boundries, to change it, but while it exists it should be complied with.
I really don't care about what you do as long as it doesn't cast a dark shadow over those of us boaters who chose to be legal.
Please don't cry when the law sees it as clearcut and awards the penalty.
Don

[Farbrook]

Originally Posted by MultiCountryDon

Immoral , bad act, illegal
This site should not encourage bad behavior which this post is promoting.

Perhaps I could ask a question:

Are you insured?

If yes
Then what's the problem: your insurance will pay up (less an excess/deductable which you can ask the uninsured party reimbursement for if you can be bothered).

If no
Then you are in the same position, taking the same risks, as all other uninsured yachtsmen.

My point, if I may repeat what I said before, is that insurance is for your own gain, not someone else's.