Weeping at my hull/keel joint

[sailawhile]

Hello All

I felt a little unsettled when I visited my winter stored Tartan T4100 and saw water drips that had weeped from my hull/keel joint. Photos attached.

I leave a little RV anti-freeze in the bilge in case I get water over the off season. the affected area appears to be roughly below the last keel bolt. I chipped off the loose filler to get a better look. So I am here asking for advice as where start.

I assume I check the keel boat tightness after removing any liquids in the bilge. Any advice on torque pressure? I am comfortable with the cosmetic repair and barrier coat. Any thoughts or advice ? How serious is this? Thanks CF.

[garyfdl]

Questions:

1- Is it water or the antifreeze that is leaking?
2- Do you know the source of the moisture?
3- Where (how far north) are you located?

[sailawhile]

It’s mostly antifreeze although there was a little ice in there so some water too.
The moisture is coming from the bilge
Chicago

[Don C L]

I don’t know your boat but I would do a search of Tartan owners groups, I know have seen them mentioned before. I bet someone there will know. Good luck!

[garyfdl]

Originally Posted by sailawhile

It’s mostly antifreeze although there was a little ice in there so some water too.
The moisture is coming from the bilge
Chicago

Antifreeze good, water bad. I guessing you know about freeze/thaw. That can cause a lot of headaches/damage. But from your pictures it doesn't look too bad.

So what to do/were it me? (And I have been there.)

1. Dry things out. There are a few options here. The best way is to use a vacuum pump. You seal off every place where water/air can get in and then attach a vacuum line to one point, seal that, and start the pump. The drop in vapor pressure literally causes the water boil off and is sucked out by the pump. If there is a lot of water (and it doesn't appear there is) you may want to install a dryer between the pump and the source. You can make one from PVC pipe, aluminum hydroxide kitty litter, and an old nylon stocking/panty hose leg/etc. You can also try a shop-vac as a vacuum source, but, in my experience, they aren't very effective in this kind of application.
   
   You could also try to flood the bilge/water ingress point(s) with denatured alcohol, a gallon would be plenty I think. It will mix with the water and evaporate. Obviously, there is a fire hazard issue. This also takes some time.
   
   Lastly is heat. Put heat lamps at the low point and turn them on. Don't get them too close or they can burn the bottom paint and might even burn/melt the hull. To hold heat (especially this time of year) you will want to skirt off the lights to try and trap and retain as much heat as possible. You could use the heat lamps in conjunction with the alcohol too... but be REALLY careful! Don't use lamps if there is still liquid alcohol in the bilge or still running from the hull.
   
   
2. After things are dry, you have to seal things off. I used a thinned epoxy; it may take a few applications. I applied it at each keel bolt, one at a time, until it didn't 'soak' in any more. NOTE I had keel studs with nuts. so I was able to remove the nuts to seal the bolts (on the hard obviously). You should seal all the bolts, even if the epoxy stops running out of the keel.

Once things are dried and sealed you can make the keel repairs, touch up the bottom, and you should be good-to-go.

Some side notes: In my experience water in the bilge in winter happens because the boat sweats and then water collects in the bilge. Initially I kept the bilge flooded with RV antifreeze, but eventually put in a garboard plug/bilge drain to the outside. After the boat was pulled I took the plug out and let the bilge drain all winter. There was always an icicle on the drain by Christmas. And yes, I had the boat securely tarped to keep the ran and snow off the topsides.

As to the keel bolt torque, I suggest contacting a Tartan owners group.

[sailawhile]

Excellent, detailed input Gary. I don't have a dedicated vacuum pump but I will look into that. I will also try the denatured alcohol.

I also have keel bolts and studs. I will remove tthem one at a time as suggested. What method did you use to thin the epoxy?

Thanks again

[garyfdl]

Originally Posted by sailawhile

Excellent, detailed input Gary. I don't have a dedicated vacuum pump but I will look into that. I will also try the denatured alcohol.

I also have keel bolts and studs. I will remove tthem one at a time as suggested. What method did you use to thin the epoxy?

Thanks again

Thanks!

I don't remember off-hand, but I think i bought it already thinned. Check this site out:

https://epoxyproducts.com/

The site is chaotic and it'll take some digging, but somewhere in there is how to thin epoxy. I also get all my epoxy 'fixn's' from Paul (the guy who owns the site and business). He's got premium product at a good price, is a wealth of knowledge and will get back to you if there is a question (warning; he can be a bit 'gruff' on the phone).

I had major wet core issues with a previous boat. Bought a vacuum switch and pump off eBay, (Harbor Freight also has pumps). Connected that to a pressure tank (Harbor Freight) and a home made desiccant filter (3" PVC - capped both ends - one of the caps is threaded to change the desiccant. Each end drilled and 1/4" brass barbed fittings installed. Desiccant was the aluminum hydroxide kitty litter in a cut-off panty hose leg, stuffed in the PVC) Connected pump to tank with the switch tee'd in between, from the tank to the filter and then to the boat. Wired it all to a household on/off switch in a box. Bought a bunch of hard, milky white, vinyl tube (the soft clear stuff will collapse). Drilled 1/4" holes in the boat at the wet spot(s) and connected them with tube and nylon fittings. I used 'window putty' (comes in grey or brown coils) to seal the fittings. Once set up I throw the switch, pump kicks in, pulls a vacuum and switch shuts it off. When the vacuum drops a bit, the switch turns the pump back on.

If it is really wet where it is connected, you can actually see the water boil off in the tube.

But there's a 'catch'. If the pump doesn't shut down there is a leak (or leaks). They need to be located or you can't drop the vapor pressure enough to boil off the water. In that case, I reverse the system and connect everything to the discharge end of the pump (making it a compressor). It then pushes dry air into the effected area and drys it out. I augment that with heat lamps on the wet area (from below if possible). You also leave a few holes 'open' so the moisture can get out. It's slow, but still faster than heat lamps alone.

I'm currently set up to dry the keel on my new-to-me Watkins 27. It has an encapsulated system, the keel is part of/integral with the hull. They used iron and concrete as ballast, There are a few small hairline crack with white deposits in the sides of the keel, which I'm guessing is calcium chloride from the concrete. I've got everything set up, just have to wait until the weather warms back up to thaw any ice.

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by sailawhile

It’s mostly antifreeze although there was a little ice in there so some water too.
The moisture is coming from the bilge
Chicago

Are you absolutely certain? Did you taste it?

I don't mean to sound facetious, it makes a big difference so I'm asking to be absolutely certain.

I've seen this commonly, and often it's water that gets into the compound from the outside, then the paint dries, then the compound weeps at the crack, just as your photo shows. This usually means just digging out the old junk, refair, and repaint.

Liquid coming from the bilge would get there via the keel bolts or cracks in the bilge. This could be indicative of a larger problem.

Aren't the hulls on the 4100 cored? It could be coming from wet core, draining down inside the hull, and escaping there. That would be bad, as wet core can freeze and crack the gelcoat & glass on the hull.

So I'd humbly suggest you track down the source with absolute certainty.

[Don C L]

I was kinda thinking the same thing but you seem sure it's the antifreeze. I don't know how big the keel stub is on your boat but it might figure in to this. If there is doubt about where the water is draining from, perhaps add food coloring to the water in the bilge.

[mike d.]

The port side photo looks like there was a repair done before ! There is a square under the paint/fairing compound with the crack through it ! Or it was a blemish fix at factory ? Or a crappy taped of repair of the compound ! To me it looks like bondo which is questionable under the water from what I have read !

[sailawhile]

Thanks for your input everyone.
It definitely was antifreeze. I could see that it was pink. Although, I was concerned when I saw ice in the bilge too. I am uncertain where that came from.
I believe above the waterline is cored and below it is solid fiberglass.
I will be digging out any suspect compound. I don’t have any cracks in the hull above the hull/keel joint.
How would one locate cracks in the bilge? Any recommendations for filler at the hull/keel joint?
Whatever I end up doing, I want to do it right and to be the “end all” of the problem

[garyfdl]

Originally Posted by sailawhile

How would one locate cracks in the bilge? Any recommendations for filler at the hull/keel joint?

There are crack finding products available at welding supply stores. Usually it's a penetrant that is sprayed on, left to 'set' and then a 'developer' is sprayed on that shows the cracks. It's used to check the integrity of welds.

BUT

While I'm sure it would show cracks in the bilge, I don't know if or how you would clean it out for later sealing.

Cracks outside along the hull/keel joint are a different matter IMO. They will need to be ground out and filled so all the penetrant/developer should be removed in that process.

Again, if it were me... I'd thoroughly clean the bilge, make sure it's dry, and then seal the keel bolts. If I thought there were cracks in the bilge? I'd seal that too, but I'd use a slightly thicker epoxy than what I used for the bolts.

As for the keel, I wouldn't mess with it unless I could see the cracks.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

... Aren't the hulls on the 4100 cored? It could be coming from wet core ...

Evidently, not.

Tartan 4100 Review

”... The hulls were hand laid and vacuum-bagged with solid glass below the waterline and balsa coring above. The T4100 is “stick-built”, created without the use of pans and liners where the interior bulkheads are tabbed to the hull and floor grid. There were three keel options—a deep fin (seven feet), a moderate draft beavertail bulb and a shoal draft with a centerboard ...”

➥ https://www.yachtworld.com/research/tartan-4100-review/

Tartan 3700 & 4100

“... The hand laid-up hulls are solid fiberglass below the waterline and cored with Baltek balsa above the waterline. Alternating layers of strand mat and unidirectional E glass make up the laminate and are vacuum-bagged. “Windows” where deck hardware and stanchions will be installed are solid fiberglass. Isophtalic polyester and vinylester resins are used to help prevent blistering.
The deck is balsa-cored ...”

➥ https://www.practical-sailor.com/sai...rtan-3700-4100

What the Hull
Building a Tartan or Legacy yacht hull
➥ What the Hull | Tartan Yachts

Tartan Hulls & Decks Are Infused With Epoxy Modified Vinylester
➥ Tartan Yachts Infused Epoxy Hulls and Decks | Tartan Yachts

[Tetepare]

Don't use the stuff for welding, it's not designed to wash off.

Use food coloring, say blue or yellow. Make sure it's water soluble (washable). Get a bunch, maybe water it down, and pour it in the bilge. Give it some time to work its way through.

Personally, I'm doubtful it's coming from the bilge, though it could be. By process of elimination you need to find the source. Water IS getting in there- if it's not from rain or snow melt being absorbed directly into the crack, then you want to know where it's coming from.

[Jake Tanley]

How long have you owned the boat and do you recall having unexpected water in the bilge last season?

"Whatever I end up doing, I want to do it right and to be the “end all” of the problem"

Assuming it's antifreeze (vs. water weeping from a past, external repair), I'm not sure how you find peace of mind in this situation without dropping and re-bedding the keel. If the keel/hull joint has been compromised (which appears to be the case), it's likely the existing bedding compound won't seal properly by simply re-torquing the keel nuts/bolts and you'll be back addressing the problem in short order.

Fortunately you own a boat who's manufacturer is still in business (and not too far away), have you reached out to anyone at Tartan to see if this is a known issue?